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Thread: Tim Ives Method

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    That's interesting JWChestnut.

    And thanks Tim that makes a lot of sense. So essentially I didn't get enough supers on them in time.

    There is still an issue here though, with the dearth atm if I added more supers containing foundation they just don't draw it at this time and so reluctant to move in. If there was a flow it would be a different ball game.

    So looks like I've screwed up the Tim Ives experiment for this season. Next season I may give it another shot but I'll do what you say & get a whole heap more supers on them earlier, if it's possible to get them drawing some of those boxes during the willow flow it may get them spread through the bigger hive earlier and have a shot at working.

    Your advice re shook swarming & redistributing sounds pretty good also. However I'm selling a lot of singles atm I may just break these big swarmy ones down to singles & flick them off, try your method again, but better, next season.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    No screw up OT. Never-ending learning process. Every year is slightly different from previous. Weather being the unpredictable variable.

    Drone brood production is another variable you can gauge by. Bees will brood up early if they have resources to do so. They don't start creating drones till fresh pollen starts coming in. Drones need to be 16 days old to be mature to mate. So once drone brood starts emerging, the hive can start Qcells.

    On average fresh pollen starts coming in 3/11 here. Drone production starts shortly after and start emerging 4/4-5. Qcells are started 4/11.
    So supering needs to occur before drones start emerging.

    Also think about the brood thats going to be emerging out OT. How many boxes needed to contain them?

    JW- interesting on the double entrance. All my hives have upper, lower and mid (supered hives) entrances.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Tim,
    Interesting that you suggested the shook swarm, I was wondering about that, too.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by merince View Post
    Tim,
    Interesting that you suggested the shook swarm, I was wondering about that, too.
    That big of a population 'primed' to draw comb. They'll draw up a few hive bodies quick and sounds early enough there to still catch the main flow. Let them draw what they can in the 11-14 day draw period, then add drawn to catch the flow.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    JW- interesting on the double entrance. All my hives have upper, lower and mid (supered hives) entrances.
    Tim can you post, or can you link, a good photo showing the mid & upper entrances?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Is the Tim Ives method written up somewhere I can find it? I tried search beesource as well as Google (found some interesting references) but no details on the actual method. Thanks

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishman43 View Post
    Is the Tim Ives method written up somewhere I can find it? I tried search beesource as well as Google (found some interesting references) but no details on the actual method. Thanks
    You'll need a ladder, a cape, and a lovely assistant.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishman43 View Post
    Is the Tim Ives method written up somewhere I can find it?
    I would like to see it written up as well. Tim has videos posted on Youtube, but does not do a lot of explanation. I got the most out of his second update. I believe I counted 11 or 12 boxes. He was using ladders and boxes to stand on to get the top boxes. It looks like you add boxes early and often with the new ones going in just above the brood and move the old supers up. I probably should re-read Tim's posts and re-watch his videos.

    I saw a guy on youtube from the UK that does a similar thing and he calls it the Rose Hive method. But only goes 7 high, because that is as high as he can reach from the ground. He bills them as the Tallest and Strongest Bee hives. He should watch Tim's video.

    I would probably keep my feet on the ground as well. Something about carrying heavy things up and down a ladder.

    Clay

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    I think that Tim is someone who prefers to instruct students in a field setting, although he does also go to bee clubs to explain his methods.

    I would also say that he's not big on writing even though he does respond to questions here on Bee Source.

    You would essentially have to go to his workshop sessions to get the full picture.

    He's 'hands on', which isn't such a bad way to do things IMO.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    I think that Tim is someone who prefers to instruct students in a field setting, although he does also go to bee clubs to explain his methods.

    I would also say that he's not big on writing even though he does respond to questions here on Bee Source.

    You would essentially have to go to his workshop sessions to get the full picture.

    He's 'hands on', which isn't such a bad way to do things IMO.

    Reminds me of the disclaimer on television infomercials;

    This is a paid advertisement using professional actors portraying real people.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Hands on is good. Although a limited number of people are exposed to methods. Get the word out via web more people trying, adapting, improving. This is one of the main goals of patents, progress.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by burns375 View Post
    This is one of the main goals of patents, progress.
    Open source collaboration is far better then patents to lead to progress. Check out Farm Hack for some examples...

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Based on what I have read and seen on YouTube, I believe this the method.
    Tim let us know if this is incorrect in any way:

    - Overwinter with a large hive of three deeps (I assume enter winter with equivalent of two deeps capped honey.)

    - As soon as possible after winter (temperatures above 55F/13C) add at least three supers (shallows). The first one with new undrawn frames on top of the three deeps, then the next two supers above that with drawn comb.

    - Then four weeks before swarm season, have at least seven supers (shallow) on the hive. Checkboard or alternate undrawn and drawn SUPERS with the new undrawn super directly on top of the three deeps.

    - Always place a new undrawn super directly on top of the three deeps and put the other existing supers above that.

    - Keep two supers of drawn comb at the top of the hive to draw the bees up to the top of the hive.

    - Use top, bottom and middle entrances to separate nectar and pollen foragers.

    - Be careful working at heights with heavy supers full of bees!!!


    Have I missed anything?

    As a hobbist I'm working on a long hive at the moment that is three deeps wide. Thinking I could do a similar thing, but putting the supers across the whole width of the hive instead. Then the hive won't get so high and much easier to access the brood nest.

    Thanks!

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    MattDavey:

    Thank you for the nice summary. I have a hive or two that might be candidates for this in the spring.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    I would say the method quite obviously depends on a nectar flow capable of supporting these towers.

    I have an early flow (first nectar/pollen) in December, but a dry summer. Seven boxes (brood and honey) is quite possible, but 8 or more is a stretch for even "boomer" hives.

    I take honey off at the end of April, early June, and July. After July, the colonies are mostly running at steady state with out much (or negative) surplus. Consequently, big hives are actually managed at a 4-5 level stack. The 2-3 level hives are much easier to manage and control. I don't see a survival difference -- but mortality is late spring and fall, not winter for my climate.

    Big stacks have a tendency to "swarm out" or release secondary swarms and leave an unmated virgin and rump colony behind that peters out. I manage that inclination by breaking down the stack into 4-5 sister nucs (run in 10 frame deep boxes) when I hear the characteristic swarm buzzing within the hive. This is not a bad thing-- makes good increase of "sister" colonies that found new out-yards; but it ends the tower. This happens in June and the sister nucs build up only lightly through the summer drought. I see a tendency to swarm driven by the **end** of nectar flow, not a surplus. Since my nectar shuts down abruptly, and Old-timers had an early spring gap, perhaps the common pattern is this nectar break. This makes evolutionary sense, as the hive is using its resources to colonize out away from the dearth.

    Tim might have a continuous and uninterrupted flow in his climate that doesn't send this swarm impulse.

    I get the impression that nectar restriction would limit the applicability of this approach to limited regions.

    On a side note, I know through the years several engineers have worked on a "Swarm-o-Meter" that filters and extracts the characteristic swarm buzz. I did signal processing from recordings. The swarm buzz is useful because it indicates incipient behavior, whereas sorting through the brood for queen cells is disruptive, stingy, and importantly, inconclusive, as queen cells are always being built and torn down. Seems like electronics are now advanced that a embedded device could be placed on multiple hives.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    JWChestnut:
    Interesting note about the "Swarm-o-meter". Do you have any links for it and is it commercially available already?

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    I would like to try and build one of those meters. They seem interesting and I really hate searching for queen cells at times.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by merince View Post
    JWChestnut:
    Interesting note about the "Swarm-o-meter". Do you have any links for it and is it commercially available already?
    Not too far -- on BeeSource!
    http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/apidictor/

    Beemaster has a thread about iPhone apps and the page with the working iPhone detector:
    http://www.instructables.com/id/ipho...-swarm-detect/
    http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,36399.0.html

    A built (separately developed app) is at:
    http://jmoore.me/swarmy/

    ebook on the originator of the idea, Eddie Woods
    http://beedata.com/data2/listen/listenbees.htm

    Sources/further reading (links not checked, may be rotted).

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ell-vibes.html
    http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/apidictor/
    http://www2.umt.edu/urelations/rview/spring07/bees.htm
    http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,36399.0.html
    http://www.dave-cushman.net/elect/apidictorarticle.html
    http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-20...2.archive.html
    http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=...c&e=221be60fc3
    Last edited by JWChesnut; 10-09-2013 at 09:08 AM.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    I would say the method quite obviously depends on a nectar flow capable of supporting these towers.
    How many yards do you have that cannot produce 8 supers of honey? If there is nectar available for a multiple of hives to produce that honey. why woudl it not be available for a single large hive?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    How many yards do you have that cannot produce 8 supers of honey? If there is nectar available for a multiple of hives to produce that honey. why woudl it not be available for a single large hive?
    I think that everyone wants to find out if tower hives are more productive than other configurations.

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