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  1. #141
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Ace considers even opening the hive a disturbance of the brood nest.
    That is how my words are coming across to you but that is not want I said. Opening the hive is a disturbance of the hive as it is a super organism.
    Checkerboarding as I have read in the pamphlet, is a manipulation of the honey frames to encourage the expansion of the brood nest. Does it matter that you are just moving honey frames if your intention is to affect the brood nest? I cannot envision any workable manipulation that would effectively curtail swarming that does not affect the brood nest even if you don't move brood.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #142
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    SeasonalBroodVolumnGraph.jpg

    The attached chart will be discussed after a short break. I will initiate a new post.

    Walt

  3. #143
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    The above chart is extracted from my presentation handouts to explain the increased honey production of checkerboarding. (The manuscript has not been updated to include this info.)

    Starting at the bottom of the chart, our seasonal field forage colony support is provided for reference. It does not look like a scale hive weight change record because the weather effects have been removed. No giant peaks and valleys. The "flows" have been truncated at the point in forage availability where all the available foragers in a given colony can be sent to the field with the prospect of gain for the trip. Note that during the mid summer dearth, some forage is normally available. A patch of something here and there that they like, but not enough to exceed colony feed requirements. Wax making stops when incoming nectar drops below colony feed needs. To divert feed nectar to make wax would be quite inefficent - the bees are efficiency experts, and protecting accumulated stores is mandatory.

    The relationship between "flows" and wax-making is somewhat garbled. The general perception is that wax making is an indication of "main flow." We do not see that as true. There are times in the season when there is plenty of field nectar and the bees are NOT making new wax. And conversely, times when there is less field nectar and they do make new wax. Not a popular opinion, but some examples might help make the point. We believe that it is a function of colony objectives of the period and whether or not the incoming nectar exceeds colony feed requirements. The dates on the chart are for my area. As we move north from here, the dates will slide to later on the calendar for the spring "flow", and earlier for the fall "flow." Shorter growing season.

    Our spring forage starts in early Feb. and runs continuously to early June, peaking with black locust and the overlapping tulip popular. Locally, overwintered, established colonies are not making wax or storing overhead for black locust, but doing both for tulip popular. This in spite of more BL than TP in our wooded areas. My conclusion is that the new wax of main flow is a function of colony internal operations and not nectar availability. Just preceding the BL bloom period is the prime reproductive swarm issue period. Not an accident that the repro swarm has a wealth of forage to get started on establishment. Colony timing for repro swarm issue is about last frost of the spring season, and they are very good at making it happen on time. Here, that's normally about the first week of April. They have had ample nectar to support backfilling of the broodnest (redbud) in swarm preps, but any wax makers generated are intended to go with the offspring swarm.

    All the wax makers generated in swarm preps do not leave with the repro swarm. Those left behind dispose of their wax holdings to prepare for a job change. This temporary new wax appearance is treated in the old literature as the "early flow." It only lasts for a few days, and then the new wax of "main flow" comes a week or two later. That's my interpretation of what I see, and I'm sticking with it against all doubters.

    In recent years the fall "flow" has failed to materialize here. No wax making in the fall. Incoming pollen and nectar is obvious, but apparently does not exceed colony feed requirements. Backfilling of the broodnest at closeout has been iffy. In the 1990s, winter preps were more reliable, and most got the broodnest properly backfilled. Only remember two seasons when maybe 30% of colonies needed fall feeding. At this time, it does not look like it's going to get better soon.

    Spent too much time on field forage - bottom line on the chart. Will have to come back to the chart when I have more time.

    Walt

  4. #144
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    playing catch up here after being away from the computer...

    walt, is the y axis representing brood volume, showing how far up in the stack that the broodnest gets, or both?

    i.e. did you observe brood volume peaking in mid-march in your double deeps vs. early april with the single deep and checkerboarded shallows? and did you observe twice the brood nest size at peak with checkerboarding vs. double deeps?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #145
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    squarepeg,
    Yes to the questions. When the undisturbed colony reaches max broodnest expansion, backfilling starts. Saving the reserve of capped honey, if they have one. In the double deep, the arch of capped honey is about half the volume, and the arc of the broodnest expansion dome is in the lower center of the upper deep.

    In the deep/shallow config expansion and backfilling is all done in the deep - saving the full shallow of capped honey as the reserve in most seasons, locally.

    A colony with field forage support and periodic flying weather can about double the brood volume for each brood cycle. The doubling effect is not shown on the chart - drawn with straight lines for my convenience. The peak in brood volume shown for the undisturbed colonies in mid March is an average start of backfilling here. If you let them start backfilling on their schedule, you will get less population for main flow. You will not recover the lost brood volume of the backfilled broodnest. The more brood volume you lose to backfilling, the less honey you get.

    The extra honey production of checkerboarding comes from the effects of increasing brood volume for an extra brood cycle. (Yes, approximately twice the peak of the swarming colony.) Main flow starts with, on average, 6 to 7 feet of concentrated bees, including 2 supers of nectar stored in the buildup. Twice the height of standard management.

    Not shown in this version of the chart is the timing of reproductive swarm cut off or the start of main flow. Repro c/o is the end of the first week of April, and three weeks later, May 1 is the start of main flow. The CBed colonies change from broodnest expansion to reduction at repro c/o.

    Walt

  6. #146
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    understood walt, many thanks.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #147
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Walt,

    THinking more about your system. So basically the key to backfilling is when they reach the honey reserve overhead.
    Assume one does not checkerboard. Assume they reached the reserve and begin to backfill. Assume there is a large number of boxes of drawn frames of empty comb added under the broodnest. So they backfill, but the queen can go lower and lower to lay in the empty cells. How would they react to that? Should this not defer swarms for the rest of the season too?

    Basically I am trying to draw a difference between destruction of honey reserve overhead and adding empty drawn frame over the checkerboarded hive, vs. leave a minimal reserve over head and instead add empty comb under the broodnest? I suppose I always envision swarming inpulse activated by nectar pressing from the top to the bottom, and brood next collapsing under the pressure of fixed bottom. What if the bottom became a variable, intead of a constant position.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Have you thought about the bees plugging the bottom box with pollen and then you put an empty one under that. Will they move the pollen? Will they go in the new bottom box?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #149
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    That actually did cross my mind, but I figured that "plugging" woudl happen a little later, not in the early spring. THat early it woudl be mostly devoid of pollen which was eaten last fall to raise winter bees.

  10. #150
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by AramF View Post
    Walt,

    THinking more about your system. So basically the key to backfilling is when they reach the honey reserve overhead.
    So they backfill, but the queen can go lower and lower to lay in the empty cells. How would they react to that? Should this not defer swarms for the rest of the season too?

    Basically I am trying to draw a difference between destruction of honey reserve overhead and adding empty drawn frame over the checkerboarded hive, vs. leave a minimal reserve over head and instead add empty comb under the broodnest? I suppose I always envision swarming inpulse activated by nectar pressing from the top to the bottom, and brood next collapsing under the pressure of fixed bottom. What if the bottom became a variable, intead of a constant position.
    I cannot say to much about the variable bottom thinking. other than I think it is game over at that point. Here is why.

    Backfilling is not so much top to bottom and is not even close to "Filling" they put a drop of nectar in every cell of the hive and do it in lightening speed. they simply render all cells unsuitable for laying an egg.

    Including back filling in the entire description of the method is a bit light including that all goes black in the description of the life of a light bulb. It only serves to let you know it is over. Same with back filling. if you find it in your hive, it is over. The queen has booked her flight and has her bags packed. If she is not gone already.

    One thing I did notice. the emptying of comb up to the backfilling was definitely not due to lack of nectar to forage for. in fact bees where filling comb right next to cells they emptied all at the same time. When the bees wanted the cells filled. they filled them and they did it in 3 days. There was no urgency to locate nectar when they wanted it.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    A F,
    Have not tried adding space below the broodnest. And will not guess at the results. A couple of observatiions that would keep me from trying that approach. Extra work, and the trend of the colony to add honey overhead to grow into by heat rise in the following winter. Am not sure they would even push the broodnest downward from the top and put brood in the comb added below.

    There is one circumstance where they will grow the broodnest downward. In late winter, if they have the broodnest jammed against the cover. The thrust of late winter is reproduction. To expand the nest and acquire the population needed to divide the colony with a repro swarm, they must grow downward - and they will. They do it the same way they expand upward into the reversed empty deep - first putting nectar there.

    At other times, they are reluctant to store nectar below the broodnest.

    D Y,
    Nice piece of detective work there. In the swarm prep period, field forage is coming up on the spring peak. They have enough foragers for 2 colonies and are NOT making wax. They are rearing the young bees needed to go with the swarm. It would be beneficial to have more beekeepers that recognize that there is little association between field nectar availability and "main flow."

    Walt

  12. #152
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    To calm things a bit, Michael and Walt both have probably forgotten more about bees than I will ever know. I am glad that both of them share their knowledge here. I am typing this while looking at a binder of beekeeping material that I have put together. I have notes from Michael's presentations on youtube as well as notes and ABJ articles by Walt that I have printed out that are contained in the binder. I have taken no telling how many hours of my time to watch presentations and read articles by both of them. Both have been great mentors. Here is the kicker..... I have NEVER met one of them personally. Now, that's saying something, and I think they should consider that there are thousands who can say the same.
    Both have a legacy here and around the country with many, many Beekeepers, and if they want to tarnish that, well....it's up to them.
    Michael, Walt......... I really appreciate your contributions. Like I said, I have spent many hours jotting down notes from both of you. I'm sure others have as well. Both of you are great Beekeepers in my book. Hats off to both of you!
    A man is worth just as much as the things about which he busies himself- Marcus Aurelius

  13. #153
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Seems like royalties as well as credit may be due when you give your presentations.

    I have known Michael first hand for more than 20 years. He shares what he knows and has experienced but doesn't suffer foolishness for very long. Nor should he have to. Walt I don't know. Maybe he's the same. Maybe that the source of friction if there is any.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  14. #154
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    There is no friction, time to move on!
    Regards, Barry

  15. #155
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    I feel obligated to defend an observation that is a tough sell and accepted by a limited few - that of the "reproductive swarm cut off" (Repro c/o) period of the spring flow. One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later. And, the fact that the cut-off can be followed by a reproductive swarm up to a month or more after cut-off. Swarm queen cell developement will often delay swarm issue for a couple of weeks and bad flying weather can extend the issue delay for a longer period. Repro c/o is colony decision time. If they have not started swarm cells, at that point, reproduction is cancelled for this spring season. It's time to reorganize for wintering honey storage. If swarm cells have been started by decision day, the work force continues the processes through swarm issue.

    We see repro c/o as a survival action to protect the existing colony. Although reproduction is the primary thrust of early season colonies, survival of the existing colony has priority over reproduction. In other words, reproduction can not be allowed to jeopardize survival of the existing colony. The odds of survival of the existing established colony far exceed the odds of survival of a repro swarm. Better to abandon swarm ambition than to push to swarm at the expense of the established. (Potential parent colony)

    There is a major change of the make-up of the existing colony workforce at repro c/o. In late winter when the motivation is reproduction, the activities are oriented to generating the young bees to populate the swarm. The surge in broodnest expansion, and the quick reduction in brood volume by backfilling are specifically oriented to generating those young bees to leave with the repro swarm. The swarm must have a sizable cadre of wax makers to have a chance at establishment in a new location.

    At repro c/o, the established colony must revise the workforce make-up to gather, pre-dry, extend cell depth, and cap honey. They have not needed these workers through the swarm prep period. When the workforce is restructured, they are ready to store honey at efficient rates - known in some circles as "main flow." They make these personnel changes during a two to three week period following repro c/o. Since they are not generally storing overhead during this period, we refer to it as the (storage) lull.

    Those of you who "don't believe" my interpretation of the internal operations are making it tougher on yourselves. If you know when to expect repro c/o, it simplifies spring management. Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver.

    Walt

  16. #156
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    I feel obligated to defend an observation that is a tough sell and accepted by a limited few - that of the "reproductive swarm cut off" (Repro c/o) period of the spring flow. One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later.

    Those of you who "don't believe" my interpretation of the internal operations are making it tougher on yourselves. If you know when to expect repro c/o, it simplifies spring management. Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver.

    Walt
    I assume this post was directed at me, and you know I'm going to answer you Mr Wright. If you really want to have a discussion, or a debate, then let's but keep it civil, maybe Barry won't delete the replies this time. I for one am not in the mood for a fight...not now or ever.

    But, since you keep bringing it up, and re-activating this thread that you started, let me ask you...

    You said..."One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later."

    What kinds of swarms would those be Walt? The ones that issue on the main flow or the fall flow? The..."we ran out of room and we bumped up against the limits of the capacity of our cavity just like we did in the spring when we bump up against a honey dome or the limits of our cavity cuz we live in a tree and no one has supered us or checkerboarded us" kind of swarm?

    Are they really different? Why because you say they are? To me they are no different. Same as an earlier swarm, the bees ran out of overhead nectar storage...either because there was what you call a honey dome or they hit the top of their cavity...both of which lead to backfilling of the broodnest...which leads to swarm preparations...not the other way around. Doesn't matter if it's May or June or July or August.

    Swarms in July ain't worth a fly, but they still swarm don't they. And in August. And sometimes September. But those don't count as what you call a repro swarm because they're different?

    You said.."Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver."

    Were the colonies that swarmed in July and August "out of the woods"?

  17. #157
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Mike,
    Am pleased that you selected later swarms as the exception that disproves the rule. I don't see that as valid.

    The academic community has been puzzled by fall swarms, forever. The fall swarm doesn't have a prayer of attaining full establishment in the remaining forage available, but I conclude that those fall swarms are normal. You just have to understand the honeybee natural instincts.

    We opened a thread on the tendency of beekeepers to ignore the natural instincts of these forest creatures. (Need to get back to that thread with some "for instances.") As reported on that thread, the honey bee's instincts are built on survival in the extended forests of past eons. They must accomplish reproduction on the early-season period of tree bloom. Availability of pollen in late winter stimulates broodnest expansion as the first phase of swarm ambition. And they have limited weeds in the forest to generate a fall flow. It does not surprise me that a strong pollen flow in early fall stimulates swarm ambition in their instincts. The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.

    Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.

    May I use your exception as a "for instance" on the instinct thread?

    Walt

  18. #158

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    fall swarms are normal.
    All beekeeping is local. As are the bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    forest creatures...extended forests of past eons.
    Don't know where this myth of a forest creature comes from? All I know is, that all the honeybee genetics originated in Africa and the Middle East. Can't find extended forests there. And in fact: there has been an extended wood in Europe, but: Europe never has been fully covered with woodland, except a couple of million years ago, when there were rainforests all over Europe...

    The woods always have been patchy over here.

    And all I know about bees is: put them into the shade of the woods and they go into a steep decline. Bees need sun and lots of herbal flowers which do not grow in a deep wood neither. I know, that woods have all those fallen trees that rip a hole into that canopy of trees, allowing sun enter the below story.

    We have only two places in Germany with pristine forest. I have been there and can't imagine that bees would thrive in those forests.

    Is the honeybee really a forest creature? Why exactly?


    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.
    Of course they sense it. I see a very different behaviour after the summer solstice and I also know there is a deep connection to the daily maximum temperature. But the length of daylight they note very well. So they sort of sense it coming. And one has to consider, that bees maintain their own environment within their hive, so they do not fully depend on outside conditions.

    Although I am very interested in the checkerboarding discussion, I do not find it a work saver. Why is that exactly?

    I see lots of ressources used: multiple supers, drawn combs. One has to winter on honey only, or the fresh honey get mixed up with winter food (syrup). The towers cannot be transported easily, which has to be done in many locations. And the conventional swarm prevention does require the checking of the hive for swarm cells only for three times maximum. That is not too much work. Unless you don't fiddle with your bees. (Some tend to...)

    There is a reason why so many beekeepers around the World do it exactly that way. I also ask myself, how the checkerboarding method does differ from other manipulations that "break" the honey dome overhead the broodnest?

    Doesn't it also depend on the strain of bee you use? There are bees like the Buckfast which store nectar/honey distant from the broodnest, whereas Carnolians for example, store honey close to the broodnest only. Backfilling of the broodnest occurs in Carnolian bees much more often. Hence the tendency to swarm.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    wcubed says....Mike,
    Am pleased that you selected later swarms as the exception that disproves the rule. I don't see that as valid.<<

    What rule Walt? Please spell it out....I chose "later" swarms because you say, " One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later." What kind of swarms are those please, if you don't mind? And what instigates these "later" swarms?

    >>The academic community has been puzzled by fall swarms, forever. The fall swarm doesn't have a prayer of attaining full establishment in the remaining forage available, but I conclude that those fall swarms are normal. You just have to understand the honeybee natural instincts.<<

    There you go again about the academic community who, you claim, don't understand the honeybee's natural instincts. I agree that fall swarms are "normal", and they swarm for the same reason as your "reproductive" swarms.


    >>It does not surprise me that a strong pollen flow in early fall stimulates swarm ambition in their instincts. The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.<<

    So why do you think that they have any way of knowing that the earlier flows will continue? To me, what you're saying, is that they're all the same.

    >>Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.<<

    Well, if you have no flow, why would you expect to see swarming?

    >>May I use your exception as a "for instance" on the instinct thread?<<

    Not sure how you plan on using my "exception". Use it right here Walt. Don't bury it in another thread. You say I believe there is an exception to your rule? No, that's what you're saying. I'm saying they're all the same. I see swarms from the end of the dandelion/fruit bloom, through the main flow. So do you. You checkerboard and super properly, and what does that do. It allows the bees overhead nectar storage, and eliminates the competition between brood rearing and nectar storage. You checkerboard and super, and lately I see you have added a reversal. I super and reverse and super. Both accomplish the same ends.

    If the beekeeper doesn't super properly to handle the nectar flow, whether it be early season, main flow, or fall flow, swarms will issue. You claim they are different, but then say they are normal. Of course they're normal. They're all swarming for the same treason. They have no room for nectar storage, so it goes into the only comb space available...where brood has recently emerged. When nectar remains in the broodnest, and can't be moved out and up, I believe that's the main trigger for reproductive swarming. I believe backfilling is a result of limited nectar storage, not something done by the bees to instigate swarming.

    >Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.<<

    Well, I would say that this supports what I am saying. Swarming is flow driven.

    >>At repro c/o, the established colony must revise the workforce make-up to gather, pre-dry, extend cell depth, and cap honey. They have not needed these workers through the swarm prep period. When the workforce is restructured, they are ready to store honey at efficient rates - known in some circles as "main flow." They make these personnel changes during a two to three week period following repro c/o. Since they are not generally storing overhead during this period, we refer to it as the (storage) lull.<<

    Storage lull? Here, that 2-3 week period you talk about is a dearth between dandelion/fruit bloom/brambles and the main flow. What happens when the main flow begins and there are no supers or not enough supers on the hive? Swarm preparations.

    One minute you're saying your repro swarms are different from swarms that issue later in the season, and then you say the later swarms are normal.
    I guess I don't understand the difference Walt. Please explain how prime swarms issuing at different flow periods are different from each other.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Bernhard,
    The opinion that the honeybee developed their survival format for the woodland is even less underpinned than a "myth." I may be the only person who believes the hypothesis has any merit. And I didn't start out with that opinion. While studying the internal operations of functional colonies, it suddenly occurred to me how well-suited their survival format was to life in the forest. Living the social insect life style and reproduction by colony division makes that really complex. Some of the features leading to the conclusion are included here:
    ..Mid winter brood rearing starts the seasonal format. Not many insects are active in the winter, but the bees have a lot to get done to issue a repro swarm at the peak of the spring flow - giving the swarm a chance at establishment on the flow trail off.
    ..In temperate (as opposed to tropical) areas, the bees need an enclosure to protect them from winter conditions. Millions of years ago, there were not many natural and suitable dry enclosures.
    ..If you believe old literature, the bees have special techniques for adapting the tree hollow for a permanent residence. I don't believe all I read, but tend to buy into features that I can see. The bees are given credit for being able to clean out punky wood and varnish the interior surfaces of the cavity with propolis down to the live wood. Then add propolis to wax at the comb attach points for structual strength. In short, we don't think that these special skills built into their instincts are an accident. The hollow tree IS their natural home.

    And where would you expect to find hollow trees?

    For the record, I disagree with most of your other comments. But nothing is gained by offering rebuttal. Neither of us would change our opinions.

    Walt

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