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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,069

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Bernhard - Interesting chart. I notice that egg production falls to 0 when the daytime high temp is at or below freezing and increases sharply starting at about 5 degrees Celsius (41 F) which seems about right just based on observation. I've never seen it quantified like that though. I assume that you feel that is accurate?

    Aside from swarming issues this data should give some insight about what is going on it the hives in (our) winter and early spring when we often have several days (or weeks) with temps in the 40s followed by colder periods - possibly correlating to clusters getting stuck on brood and starving to death with honey only 3 inches away. Completely preventable if it can be predicted.

    You don't by any chance have that as a working spreadsheet that you would let out?
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  2. #42

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,069

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Thanks for the spreadsheets. Appreciated.

    BTW, although I have not successfully reliably prevented swarming by checker boarding (I either didn't have resources to do it right or didn't do it at the right time though) I have observed that checker boarded hives don't starve during late cold snaps - the arrangement insures that plenty of honey is within reach of the brood/cluster. So, even if you can't do it in a way that effectively prevents swarming it still might be worth trying.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  4. #44

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    ...
    Let's discuss there: http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...Swarming-dates

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    This thread started by claiming that I was calling Walt a fool or a liar. It has become a discussion of walt's checkerboarding theory.

    I re-state my point...first stated in a different thread, and one in which no names were put forth and no finger pointed.

    There is no management procedure, short of removing brood and bees, that will prevent all swarming. None. If one makes such a claim...well, what can I say...they are mistaken.

    Now, correct me if I am wrong...Walt, didn't your bees swarm last spring...2012?

    And again...I believe you say you never split boxes apart after the so called repro-c/o date because you damage too many "supercedure" cells between the boxes? And, you consider that a swarm that issues after that date to be a "supercedure" swarm?

    Just trying to clarify.
    Prevent all swarming No. Dramatically reduce probabilities and get huge amounts of bees to put up 300-500# while drawing out 4-7 new supers. I do so EVERY year on hives supered up, checker boarding supers, not frames.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,977

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post

    If you understand those observations, perhaps you would like to guess why the difference. Am open to suggestions.

    Walt
    Walt, I would like to offer this thought. feel free to treat it as you like. I see one issue may be to never let the bees reach that top box of checkered capped frames. I added three mediums above my deep brood chamber last spring before I ran out of boxes. and these new boxes where foundation. I found a long as the bees never got into that top box they would draw comb. produce brood and the whole nine yards. they woudl not move up until they have converted the space between the nest and the top to comb of some use.

    I will also point out that our swarm season last year ran from March to late May. I do not think there was any chance of preventing swarms by any method with that prolonged a period of time.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    McClure, OH
    Posts
    1,017

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Even though this thread does not answer the original question, it offers great insights!

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Boonville, Indiana,USA
    Posts
    96

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    I would like to know more about the checker boarding you guys are talking about. I do some type of checker boarding but most likely something I came up with.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,482

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Meant is 22.8295 to the power of 1.4254

    I have never seen a power being a fraction of a whole number. Anyway a number to a power should be a number. Could you help me out on what that constant is?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    86.377 or a pretty close approximation of sin(60). I suspect it is like many natural events, tied to the solar theta angle.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    665

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Walt don't be so hard on yourself. Everyone has their own management techniques and nothing is 100% foolproof. I look forward to an abundance of swarm cell queens as they turn out to be my best queens to head new colonies. I could care less about loosing a few swarms to nature now and then, as again that existing colony will then be fortunate enough to have a new locally raised queen; one far better than I could purchase or likely raise.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Mike,
    We have not had a round lately. Over due.
    Don't think I said in the OP that your statement was directed at me. This thread was just intended to apply it to me, because I DO say I can stop swarming. misspelling liar was inadvertent.

    You state you opinion again here in positive terms. Hate to tell you this, but it is still wrong. Not me, but the checkerboarding technique does stop reproductive swarming. Let me state it this way: We have not had a reproductive swarm from any colony where we followed our own recommendations over an eight year period. A minimum of 20 colonies over 8 years is at least 160 opportunities in a highly swarm-prone area.

    We did have 4 swarms during those 8 years where our recommendations where were NOT followed to the letter of law. 3 were cases where we tried a variation to see what would happen, and the 4th was accidental negligence - a pollen box was stored at the top of a strong colony for protection over winter and it blocked expansion in the spring.

    Yes, we had one swarm last season. Seeing the average tree bloom was about three
    weeks early, we guessed Repro cut off would also be three weeks early. 2 of 6 showed the effects of repro c/o. We added a super of foundation above the broodnest on all. The strongest colony was not one of the hives that showed repro c/o and they swarmed. Another error on the part of the beekeeper. We recommend using drawn comb THROUGH repro c/o. (That timing milestone that you don't believe exists.)

    brooksbeefarm also hinted at my possible failure to recognize swarming if I had some. A bonus feature of CB is the extra nectar stored overhead during the swarm prep period. If the colony is filling supers of nectar overhead during that period, it's positive evidence that CB is working. We don't even check for swarm cells. A definate work-saving advantage. Weekly supering passes tells me all I need to know.

    About supersedure:
    CBed colonies do supersede in the early season. 2nd year colonies as early as repro c/o and established colonies as late as early "main flow." I'm sure you know supersedure does not generate swarms. Don't understand your question. In fact, the brood break of SS mostly deters swarming. I repeat - NO swarms, when properly done.

    You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
    It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions.

    Walt

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,531

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    walt, so you were overwintering with a single deep and three shallows, one below and two above the deep, which would be equal to about 2 1/2 deeps total space.

    the bottom shallow got moved up in late february, and the goal was to have the first shallow super with solid honey and the second and third shallow supers checkerboarded with honey and drawn comb.

    i'm curious as to how many shallow supers you ended up with on average by the end of main flow above that single deep, and how much harvestable honey you ended up with on average per hive.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,482

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    You have wasted a lot of time badgering me,
    You baited him and I suspect it is what you wanted to do.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,482

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    walt, so you were overwintering with a single deep and three shallows, one below and two above the deep, which would be equal to about 2 1/2 deeps total space.
    Squarepeg just use mediums and forget the nonsense that bees won't cross the gap. Life gets simpler then.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,381

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
    It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions. Walt
    Bologna

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,697

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Although I do not follow Walt's methods in Wisconsin, I would tend to believe his observed results. Preventing swarming is not that difficult, and various methods have been discussed, developed, and practiced for quite awhile. Our methods, acknowledged by Walt as possibly effective, where developed in the early 40's by my grandfather, a 3rd generation beekeeper. We see no evidence of swarming, and would bet that any individual could replicate our results by using the same methods. After all, swarm control in production hive is a walk in the park compared to managing basswood section comb honey hives.

    Crazy(or foolish?) Roland
    5th gen beekeeper
    Linden Apiary, est. 1852

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Elkton, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    288

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Bologna
    Mike,

    Bologna?

    OK, how about independant, unbiased, non-solicited proof?

    We just received a copy of an article written by a beekeeper in Georgia. Using Nectar Management he harvested 144 pounds of honey from a single hive this year. He says the normal production for his area is 50 pounds per hive per year, and this was a poor year due to a late, wet spring.

    See the article here:
    http://www.cowetahoney.com/news/comp...nagement-2013/

    When you try it side by side with your management (and do it correctly) on scale hives you can make comments like that. Until then, clam up.

    Roy

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Honey Hive Farms, Winfield Missouri
    Posts
    357

    Default Re: "lier or a fool"

    Honey Hive Farms,

    Hmmmm lots of talk here, we are going to stay out of this one.

    Can everyone be right?

    Tim Moore
    Honey Hive Farms "Saving the world one bee at a time"
    www.HoneyHiveFarms.com

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    660

    Default Re: "liar or a fool"

    Quote Originally Posted by Honey Hive Farms View Post
    Can everyone be right?
    Maybe.

    Statistically 20 hives, or even 160 tests is not enough of a sample to make an absolute statement.


    From Walt's point of view it is a 100% success.

    Then from Michael's point of view, even if there were 10,000 tests done and only one hive swarmed, it would prove his point.


    Can we say:

    In general, Checkerboarding stops reproductive swarms? Yes.

    Checkerboarding absolutely, 100%, all of the time, stops reproductive swarms? No.

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