Mr. Palmer of VT stated on a thread a couple months back that anyone who said he could stop swarming was either a lier or a fool. He is a respected authority here on the forums. So, the statement must be true. Since I'm one of those persons who claims to stop swarming, I must be one or the other.
I'm not a lier. Learned as youngster that if one conducts himself in manner that he not ashamed of, there is never a reason to lie. Not many among us that can say truthfully that we didn't tell our parents a fib in our rebellious teen years.
That leaves a fool. After reflecting on that question for some time, I think I might qualify as a fool. I have a history of poor investments in marriage, business, and personal health. My beekeeping time has poor judgements in all of those categories. When I had a reliable swarm prevention system, abandoned my original objective of supplemental retirement income. Thought other beekeepers ought to know about it. Very naive! Not only did they not want know about it, they were quite abusive about telling me so. But I persist. Foolish, no?
Walt - I bought your manuscript, studied it, and hopefully learned from it. My big concern at the time (and one i still have) is while the concepts may be universal in application your description, research, equipment and timing used are local to you.
The regional differences in keeping bees make it impossible to apply your strategies without modification in my locale. You have brought up good things to think about and advanced my understanding of spring buildup. But I certainly understand Mike's point - Preventing swarming in Vermont is quite different from preventing swarming in Tennessee.
As one example - it is too cold here to be in hives 8 weeks before Apple Bloom. 5 weeks, maybe.
To visualize what I have wrote I put the following table. This is this year's Spring temperatures and the connected egg laying rate put together with starting parameters from a rather small colony. Starting parameters are estimated by inspection in February.
We got a late cold snap this year, which stopped the brood increase and hive development for some weeks.
Once the brood amount reaches 18,000 brood cells (which is considered the minimum amount of brood necessary about 40 days before the first flow for a productive colony) and the ratio bees and brood is 1:2 (or 200 %) the colony starts drone raising. It is pretty astonishing to actually be able to calculate from outside maximum temperatures the date when they start drone raising. But it works. Just track the temperatures and with some forecast data (which are not really reliable, especially in Spring...but a week or two in advance) you can calculate and predict the hive development. (To a certain degree of course. At the end it is just a calculation, not the reality.)
When the bee:brood-ration drops below 150 % after the first increase of the broodnest, the bees start definite swarm preparation, means they build swarm cells.
I still do not know, why that is, but hopefully others join in and verify the calculations by their own observations and monitoring. As said above I think it is the brood that releases hormons and by the ratio bee:brood the overall nest scent/smell differs.
Maybe this sort of insight, if it can be verified, delivers the background for why checkerboarding works - or helps to localizing the method by adjusting the system from the daily maximum temperatures.
Wow Bernhard, great data. That is amazing how egg laying is proportional to temperature until it looks like a decision to swarm is made. Maybe that is the effect of backfilling.
This is great data. It would be very interesting to overlay this data for 5-6 years to see if how close to the same it is every year. Very interesting thanks for posting.
When dealing with animals nothing is 100% guaranteed. But if the chance of Swarming can be reduced to a small percentage with Checkerboarding, then i think you you can say it stops swarming.
So the debate is between a persons definition. Does it have to 100% stops swarming, or 95% stops swarming to make the claim that Checkerboarding stops swarming?
I have checked out many claims that it hasn't worked and those people had not followed the guidelines. Usually they had left it too late in the season or hadn't used drawn comb.
Bernhard, that table looks wrong to me. It looks like it is calculations, not real data. Can you confirm what is real data?
The number of eggs laid does not directly relate to the outside maximum temperature like you have in your table.
I believe Swarming is related to the following ratio:
Nurse bees : Open brood (brood between 3-8 days old)
When the numbers of Open brood get too low, or the numbers of Nurse bees gets to high, there are too many nurse bees to feed brood. Hormone levels in the Nurse bees change due to not feeding brood. Brood gets overfed with royal jelly. The queen get harassed more, and lays less. All conditions conducive to swarming.
Well, as I wrote in my post above. It is a model that I use to forecast what is going on and it works pretty well for me. Means, I find in the hives what I forecast. Not a 100 % the same, but as you said: nothing is 100 % dealing with animals. Especially with bees.
Well, a very well known bee scientist, Josef Bretschko found out that correlation. He studied it in detail for decades and even wrote in a book about it. Two other bee scientists, Bergmann&Bergmann continued his work and verfied what he has found in their own studies. They even were able to develop a formula, which is the one I use in my calculations.
The formula is: egg laying per day y = x * 22.8295 1.4254 high
Where x = is the daily maximum temperature.
Bergmann&Bergmann also wrote a chapter or two in their book. With all the tables and results. The studies were done with Carnolian bees, but Bergmann&Bergmann indicated, that the correlation is true for other bees, too. As I find with my Buckfasts, this can be confirmed.
I just can invite you to look closer into it by your own observations. Write down the daily maximum temperatures and calculate from it, check with reality. I was surprised myself, since I am a bit sceptical a person.
So are you saying Temperatures/Climate can greatly affect swarming timing and the results of trying to prevent it? Thus the different results because of the different climates of Michael Palmer and Walt Wright?
As an example, where I am in Victoria, we start seeing Drones from late July or early August, but don't have swarming until Mid October. A minimum of eight weeks between the two events, so seeing Drones is not related to the timing of swarms.
So are you saying Temperatures/Climate can greatly affect swarming timing and the results of trying to prevent it? Thus the different results because of the different climates of Michael Palmer and Walt Wright?
This thread started by claiming that I was calling Walt a fool or a liar. It has become a discussion of walt's checkerboarding theory.
I re-state my point...first stated in a different thread, and one in which no names were put forth and no finger pointed.
There is no management procedure, short of removing brood and bees, that will prevent all swarming. None. If one makes such a claim...well, what can I say...they are mistaken.
Now, correct me if I am wrong...Walt, didn't your bees swarm last spring...2012?
And again...I believe you say you never split boxes apart after the so called repro-c/o date because you damage too many "supercedure" cells between the boxes? And, you consider that a swarm that issues after that date to be a "supercedure" swarm?
I have never seen a power being a fraction of a whole number. Anyway a number to a power should be a number. Could you help me out on what that constant is?
Bernhard - Interesting chart. I notice that egg production falls to 0 when the daytime high temp is at or below freezing and increases sharply starting at about 5 degrees Celsius (41 F) which seems about right just based on observation. I've never seen it quantified like that though. I assume that you feel that is accurate?
Aside from swarming issues this data should give some insight about what is going on it the hives in (our) winter and early spring when we often have several days (or weeks) with temps in the 40s followed by colder periods - possibly correlating to clusters getting stuck on brood and starving to death with honey only 3 inches away. Completely preventable if it can be predicted.
You don't by any chance have that as a working spreadsheet that you would let out?
BTW, although I have not successfully reliably prevented swarming by checker boarding (I either didn't have resources to do it right or didn't do it at the right time though) I have observed that checker boarded hives don't starve during late cold snaps - the arrangement insures that plenty of honey is within reach of the brood/cluster. So, even if you can't do it in a way that effectively prevents swarming it still might be worth trying.
I would like to know more about the checker boarding you guys are talking about. I do some type of checker boarding but most likely something I came up with.
Walt don't be so hard on yourself. Everyone has their own management techniques and nothing is 100% foolproof. I look forward to an abundance of swarm cell queens as they turn out to be my best queens to head new colonies. I could care less about loosing a few swarms to nature now and then, as again that existing colony will then be fortunate enough to have a new locally raised queen; one far better than I could purchase or likely raise.
Mike,
We have not had a round lately. Over due.
Don't think I said in the OP that your statement was directed at me. This thread was just intended to apply it to me, because I DO say I can stop swarming. misspelling liar was inadvertent.
You state you opinion again here in positive terms. Hate to tell you this, but it is still wrong. Not me, but the checkerboarding technique does stop reproductive swarming. Let me state it this way: We have not had a reproductive swarm from any colony where we followed our own recommendations over an eight year period. A minimum of 20 colonies over 8 years is at least 160 opportunities in a highly swarm-prone area.
We did have 4 swarms during those 8 years where our recommendations where were NOT followed to the letter of law. 3 were cases where we tried a variation to see what would happen, and the 4th was accidental negligence - a pollen box was stored at the top of a strong colony for protection over winter and it blocked expansion in the spring.
Yes, we had one swarm last season. Seeing the average tree bloom was about three
weeks early, we guessed Repro cut off would also be three weeks early. 2 of 6 showed the effects of repro c/o. We added a super of foundation above the broodnest on all. The strongest colony was not one of the hives that showed repro c/o and they swarmed. Another error on the part of the beekeeper. We recommend using drawn comb THROUGH repro c/o. (That timing milestone that you don't believe exists.)
brooksbeefarm also hinted at my possible failure to recognize swarming if I had some. A bonus feature of CB is the extra nectar stored overhead during the swarm prep period. If the colony is filling supers of nectar overhead during that period, it's positive evidence that CB is working. We don't even check for swarm cells. A definate work-saving advantage. Weekly supering passes tells me all I need to know.
About supersedure:
CBed colonies do supersede in the early season. 2nd year colonies as early as repro c/o and established colonies as late as early "main flow." I'm sure you know supersedure does not generate swarms. Don't understand your question. In fact, the brood break of SS mostly deters swarming. I repeat - NO swarms, when properly done.
You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions.
Mike,
We have not had a round lately. Over due.
Don't think I said in the OP that your statement was directed at me. This thread was just intended to apply it to me, because I DO say I can stop swarming.
You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions.
Again...Bologna. You most certainly did imply that what I said was directed at you. I allowed you to have your fun and your say and line up your ducks in support of your theory. I've never said your nectar management theory won't prevent swarming. I do maintain that checkerboarding isn't the only successful plan. I have disagreed with your theory of swarm repro c/o date and your idea that any swarms after that time are something other than repro-swarms.
This post was started using my name. It was started with the intention of belittling me and what I said. You took what I said in another thread out of context and used it to elevate you and your beekeeping dogma. I have photos of skyscraper hives too Walt, but won't bother posting them as you'll just find some other way to devalue what I believe to be true. Do you make more honey per colony than I do Walt? Gosh I hope so. 20 colonies is nothing but spit in the wind. How much total food do you make for your fellow human beings? How many families do you support with your work Walt?
You took what I said out of context. The original thread was about raising queen stock that wouldn't swarm. All stocks will swarm. Yes one can breed stocks that will have a lower propensity to swarm, but the swarming instinct will never be bred out of bees. Anyone who says they can is either a fool or a liar. Period.
Now, when I said that, you got your shorts in a bunch...because I said it, and used what I said to attack me. I took great delight in fantasizing about the wedgie you have, and it really got your blood pressure up when I mentioned luncheon meat, eh Walt. Whatever.
You wanted me to have the last word?? Again, Bologna. You ended this discussion a couple times already. And you and Walt's-Son-In-Law continue to add a bit more. Nice photos of skyscrapers Walt, but it doesn't mean much, really. I have seen plenty from other beekeepers who never heard of "checkerboarding" or some repro swarm c/o date theory.
walt, so you were overwintering with a single deep and three shallows, one below and two above the deep, which would be equal to about 2 1/2 deeps total space.
the bottom shallow got moved up in late february, and the goal was to have the first shallow super with solid honey and the second and third shallow supers checkerboarded with honey and drawn comb.
i'm curious as to how many shallow supers you ended up with on average by the end of main flow above that single deep, and how much harvestable honey you ended up with on average per hive.
walt, so you were overwintering with a single deep and three shallows, one below and two above the deep, which would be equal to about 2 1/2 deeps total space.
Although I do not follow Walt's methods in Wisconsin, I would tend to believe his observed results. Preventing swarming is not that difficult, and various methods have been discussed, developed, and practiced for quite awhile. Our methods, acknowledged by Walt as possibly effective, where developed in the early 40's by my grandfather, a 3rd generation beekeeper. We see no evidence of swarming, and would bet that any individual could replicate our results by using the same methods. After all, swarm control in production hive is a walk in the park compared to managing basswood section comb honey hives.
Crazy(or foolish?) Roland
5th gen beekeeper
Linden Apiary, est. 1852
roy, as you may know your father-in-law and i have become friends and have enjoyed sharing our experiences with each other. no need to ask anyone to clam up, for better or worse, that is what the forum is all about.
matt, well stated.
tim, welcome to beesource!
walt, please share your production averages with us, it's o.k. to brag here.
roy, as you may know your father-in-law and i have become friends and have enjoyed sharing our experiences with each other. no need to ask anyone to clam up, for better or worse, that is what the forum is all about.
matt, well stated.
tim, welcome to beesource!
walt, please share your production averages with us, it's o.k. to brag here.
My apologies to you and all others. Perhaps my last sentence was too harsh. In my defense, I have been a research engineer for over 20 years. We float theories all the time, it's the nature of our profession. However, you MUST use word like 'I think', 'perhaps', 'in my opinion', or something similar. If one of my colleagues were to make a statement and I hit him with a comment like 'bologna' I had better have proof in hand to back up my claim. If not, I would loose the respect of my colleagues and they would soon stop listening to my opinions.
The thing is for it to work you have to know exactly what to do, and exactly when to do it (by the local signs) and you have to have the resources to do it. And then you have to actually do it correctly, and timely. Most of us don't have the ability/time/motivation to act that deliberately.
David,
As Dennis (bwrangler) said, the requirement for when is just "early enough." On the first test of the concept, we did the manip while home for the holidays at Christmas time. If your configuration is set up for winter, you could do it tomorrow and it would be in place in Feb. After that, Mar. through July, just maintain an empty super at the top (drawn comb through late April) It may be because I'm familiar with the system, but it sounds dirt simple to me.
Squarepeg,
I have no actual data on production, so you put me in a slight strain.
Before I get started, let me say that I neglected to say "per hive" in my response to Mr. Palmer. He obviously makes more total honey than we could imagine with our few hives. He may not believe that either, but that's his prerogative.
My average production over the years with CB, I would estimate to be 6 to 7 shallow supers of surplus per hive. Some years more, some years less. That comes out to be about 150 lb. Sorry, I don't think in pounds. I think in supers.
We had one year where 'main flow' was a bust. The 80 lbs we harvested was primarily that necter that was stored during buildup. Some of the local contemporaries harvested nothing.
One year, took 2 hives to the Huntsville, AL club yard for a demonstration of CB. They made about 170 lbs. each. Supers were weighed in and out of extraction.
John Skinner, our local extension PhD, says this is a 50 to seventy pound area. That's about what I got in the early years. But in that period, we were collecting feral bees in the spring period and taking no time to avert swarms. Maybe everybody's bees swarm here.
Kevin, do me a favor, please. You know how to post pictures, and I think you know where to find the trailer pic. If you post it, I will add a description.
This is freaking amazing to me! Do you have SHB where you are? How many bees are in those hives? If you have SHB how do you keep them from sliming your top supers? So many questions!!!
I followed the CB to about the letter last year on one of my hives at the house. They were slow to build and I collected them from the neighbor’s cotton wood tree on June 6th. They only used one half of the hive as if they wanted only 5 frames per box. As Walt stated earlier it was a record mild year for us as well and my log recorded record high temp of 75 F for easter and 86 on May 14th. My apple bloom was only a week early (I record most of my trees but use the Gravenstien). I pulled zero pounds from that hive and drew no new foundation (recorded). If I were MP I would have tore it down and made OW nucs out of it but they moved into the shallow with brood and were saved!
I like the info from the German, I am going to study it a bit but right now I think I am going to do what Crazy Roland told me in Wisconsin last year.
Not the one I had in mind, but it will do. The trailer pic had 10 colonies on it - not stacked quite that high, but it was taken 3 weeks before flow end. These two photos were taken at flow end.
The inset colony was located in Burtonsville, Md. Was spending half-time in MD seeing to the care of my parents. The 2 hive pic were here in Elkton. Don't know if you can make out the penciled legend, but the weights were not actual. Just counted shallow supers at 20 pounds each. A plugged out, 9 frame shallow holds more than that. Used the low number to adjust for possible partials at the top. It was a 'good year' in both locations and the photos reflect above average production.
If your system produces above average production, why be shy about it? Answer: people think you are stretching the truth and tune you out. That's what this thread is all about.
Walt
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