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My swarm prevention system

68K views 180 replies 42 participants last post by  jmgi 
#1 ·
Mr. Palmer of VT stated on a thread a couple months back that anyone who said he could stop swarming was either a lier or a fool. He is a respected authority here on the forums. So, the statement must be true. Since I'm one of those persons who claims to stop swarming, I must be one or the other.

I'm not a lier. Learned as youngster that if one conducts himself in manner that he not ashamed of, there is never a reason to lie. Not many among us that can say truthfully that we didn't tell our parents a fib in our rebellious teen years.

That leaves a fool. After reflecting on that question for some time, I think I might qualify as a fool. I have a history of poor investments in marriage, business, and personal health. My beekeeping time has poor judgements in all of those categories. When I had a reliable swarm prevention system, abandoned my original objective of supplemental retirement income. Thought other beekeepers ought to know about it. Very naive! Not only did they not want know about it, they were quite abusive about telling me so. But I persist. Foolish, no?

Walt
 
#151 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

A F,
Have not tried adding space below the broodnest. And will not guess at the results. A couple of observatiions that would keep me from trying that approach. Extra work, and the trend of the colony to add honey overhead to grow into by heat rise in the following winter. Am not sure they would even push the broodnest downward from the top and put brood in the comb added below.

There is one circumstance where they will grow the broodnest downward. In late winter, if they have the broodnest jammed against the cover. The thrust of late winter is reproduction. To expand the nest and acquire the population needed to divide the colony with a repro swarm, they must grow downward - and they will. They do it the same way they expand upward into the reversed empty deep - first putting nectar there.

At other times, they are reluctant to store nectar below the broodnest.

D Y,
Nice piece of detective work there. In the swarm prep period, field forage is coming up on the spring peak. They have enough foragers for 2 colonies and are NOT making wax. They are rearing the young bees needed to go with the swarm. It would be beneficial to have more beekeepers that recognize that there is little association between field nectar availability and "main flow."

Walt
 
#152 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

To calm things a bit, Michael and Walt both have probably forgotten more about bees than I will ever know. I am glad that both of them share their knowledge here. I am typing this while looking at a binder of beekeeping material that I have put together. I have notes from Michael's presentations on youtube as well as notes and ABJ articles by Walt that I have printed out that are contained in the binder. I have taken no telling how many hours of my time to watch presentations and read articles by both of them. Both have been great mentors. Here is the kicker..... I have NEVER met one of them personally. Now, that's saying something, and I think they should consider that there are thousands who can say the same.
Both have a legacy here and around the country with many, many Beekeepers, and if they want to tarnish that, well....it's up to them.
Michael, Walt......... I really appreciate your contributions. Like I said, I have spent many hours jotting down notes from both of you. I'm sure others have as well. Both of you are great Beekeepers in my book. Hats off to both of you!
 
#153 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Seems like royalties as well as credit may be due when you give your presentations. :)

I have known Michael first hand for more than 20 years. He shares what he knows and has experienced but doesn't suffer foolishness for very long. Nor should he have to. Walt I don't know. Maybe he's the same. Maybe that the source of friction if there is any.
 
#155 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

I feel obligated to defend an observation that is a tough sell and accepted by a limited few - that of the "reproductive swarm cut off" (Repro c/o) period of the spring flow. One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later. And, the fact that the cut-off can be followed by a reproductive swarm up to a month or more after cut-off. Swarm queen cell developement will often delay swarm issue for a couple of weeks and bad flying weather can extend the issue delay for a longer period. Repro c/o is colony decision time. If they have not started swarm cells, at that point, reproduction is cancelled for this spring season. It's time to reorganize for wintering honey storage. If swarm cells have been started by decision day, the work force continues the processes through swarm issue.

We see repro c/o as a survival action to protect the existing colony. Although reproduction is the primary thrust of early season colonies, survival of the existing colony has priority over reproduction. In other words, reproduction can not be allowed to jeopardize survival of the existing colony. The odds of survival of the existing established colony far exceed the odds of survival of a repro swarm. Better to abandon swarm ambition than to push to swarm at the expense of the established. (Potential parent colony)

There is a major change of the make-up of the existing colony workforce at repro c/o. In late winter when the motivation is reproduction, the activities are oriented to generating the young bees to populate the swarm. The surge in broodnest expansion, and the quick reduction in brood volume by backfilling are specifically oriented to generating those young bees to leave with the repro swarm. The swarm must have a sizable cadre of wax makers to have a chance at establishment in a new location.

At repro c/o, the established colony must revise the workforce make-up to gather, pre-dry, extend cell depth, and cap honey. They have not needed these workers through the swarm prep period. When the workforce is restructured, they are ready to store honey at efficient rates - known in some circles as "main flow." They make these personnel changes during a two to three week period following repro c/o. Since they are not generally storing overhead during this period, we refer to it as the (storage) lull.

Those of you who "don't believe" my interpretation of the internal operations are making it tougher on yourselves. If you know when to expect repro c/o, it simplifies spring management. Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver.

Walt
 
#156 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

I feel obligated to defend an observation that is a tough sell and accepted by a limited few - that of the "reproductive swarm cut off" (Repro c/o) period of the spring flow. One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later.

Those of you who "don't believe" my interpretation of the internal operations are making it tougher on yourselves. If you know when to expect repro c/o, it simplifies spring management. Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver.

Walt
I assume this post was directed at me, and you know I'm going to answer you Mr Wright. If you really want to have a discussion, or a debate, then let's but keep it civil, maybe Barry won't delete the replies this time. I for one am not in the mood for a fight...not now or ever.

But, since you keep bringing it up, and re-activating this thread that you started, let me ask you...

You said..."One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later."

What kinds of swarms would those be Walt? The ones that issue on the main flow or the fall flow? The..."we ran out of room and we bumped up against the limits of the capacity of our cavity just like we did in the spring when we bump up against a honey dome or the limits of our cavity cuz we live in a tree and no one has supered us or checkerboarded us" kind of swarm?

Are they really different? Why because you say they are? To me they are no different. Same as an earlier swarm, the bees ran out of overhead nectar storage...either because there was what you call a honey dome or they hit the top of their cavity...both of which lead to backfilling of the broodnest...which leads to swarm preparations...not the other way around. Doesn't matter if it's May or June or July or August.

Swarms in July ain't worth a fly, but they still swarm don't they. And in August. And sometimes September. But those don't count as what you call a repro swarm because they're different?

You said.."Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver."

Were the colonies that swarmed in July and August "out of the woods"?
 
#157 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Mike,
Am pleased that you selected later swarms as the exception that disproves the rule. I don't see that as valid.

The academic community has been puzzled by fall swarms, forever. The fall swarm doesn't have a prayer of attaining full establishment in the remaining forage available, but I conclude that those fall swarms are normal. You just have to understand the honeybee natural instincts.

We opened a thread on the tendency of beekeepers to ignore the natural instincts of these forest creatures. (Need to get back to that thread with some "for instances.") As reported on that thread, the honey bee's instincts are built on survival in the extended forests of past eons. They must accomplish reproduction on the early-season period of tree bloom. Availability of pollen in late winter stimulates broodnest expansion as the first phase of swarm ambition. And they have limited weeds in the forest to generate a fall flow. It does not surprise me that a strong pollen flow in early fall stimulates swarm ambition in their instincts. The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.

Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.

May I use your exception as a "for instance" on the instinct thread?

Walt
 
#158 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

fall swarms are normal.
All beekeeping is local. As are the bees.

forest creatures...extended forests of past eons.
Don't know where this myth of a forest creature comes from? All I know is, that all the honeybee genetics originated in Africa and the Middle East. Can't find extended forests there. And in fact: there has been an extended wood in Europe, but: Europe never has been fully covered with woodland, except a couple of million years ago, when there were rainforests all over Europe...

The woods always have been patchy over here.

And all I know about bees is: put them into the shade of the woods and they go into a steep decline. Bees need sun and lots of herbal flowers which do not grow in a deep wood neither. I know, that woods have all those fallen trees that rip a hole into that canopy of trees, allowing sun enter the below story.

We have only two places in Germany with pristine forest. I have been there and can't imagine that bees would thrive in those forests.

Is the honeybee really a forest creature? Why exactly?


The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.
Of course they sense it. I see a very different behaviour after the summer solstice and I also know there is a deep connection to the daily maximum temperature. But the length of daylight they note very well. So they sort of sense it coming. And one has to consider, that bees maintain their own environment within their hive, so they do not fully depend on outside conditions.

Although I am very interested in the checkerboarding discussion, I do not find it a work saver. Why is that exactly?

I see lots of ressources used: multiple supers, drawn combs. One has to winter on honey only, or the fresh honey get mixed up with winter food (syrup). The towers cannot be transported easily, which has to be done in many locations. And the conventional swarm prevention does require the checking of the hive for swarm cells only for three times maximum. That is not too much work. Unless you don't fiddle with your bees. (Some tend to...)

There is a reason why so many beekeepers around the World do it exactly that way. I also ask myself, how the checkerboarding method does differ from other manipulations that "break" the honey dome overhead the broodnest?

Doesn't it also depend on the strain of bee you use? There are bees like the Buckfast which store nectar/honey distant from the broodnest, whereas Carnolians for example, store honey close to the broodnest only. Backfilling of the broodnest occurs in Carnolian bees much more often. Hence the tendency to swarm.
 
#159 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

wcubed says....Mike,
Am pleased that you selected later swarms as the exception that disproves the rule. I don't see that as valid.<<

What rule Walt? Please spell it out....I chose "later" swarms because you say, " One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later." What kind of swarms are those please, if you don't mind? And what instigates these "later" swarms?

>>The academic community has been puzzled by fall swarms, forever. The fall swarm doesn't have a prayer of attaining full establishment in the remaining forage available, but I conclude that those fall swarms are normal. You just have to understand the honeybee natural instincts.<<

There you go again about the academic community who, you claim, don't understand the honeybee's natural instincts. I agree that fall swarms are "normal", and they swarm for the same reason as your "reproductive" swarms.


>>It does not surprise me that a strong pollen flow in early fall stimulates swarm ambition in their instincts. The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.<<

So why do you think that they have any way of knowing that the earlier flows will continue? To me, what you're saying, is that they're all the same.

>>Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.<<

Well, if you have no flow, why would you expect to see swarming?

>>May I use your exception as a "for instance" on the instinct thread?<<

Not sure how you plan on using my "exception". Use it right here Walt. Don't bury it in another thread. You say I believe there is an exception to your rule? No, that's what you're saying. I'm saying they're all the same. I see swarms from the end of the dandelion/fruit bloom, through the main flow. So do you. You checkerboard and super properly, and what does that do. It allows the bees overhead nectar storage, and eliminates the competition between brood rearing and nectar storage. You checkerboard and super, and lately I see you have added a reversal. I super and reverse and super. Both accomplish the same ends.

If the beekeeper doesn't super properly to handle the nectar flow, whether it be early season, main flow, or fall flow, swarms will issue. You claim they are different, but then say they are normal. Of course they're normal. They're all swarming for the same treason. They have no room for nectar storage, so it goes into the only comb space available...where brood has recently emerged. When nectar remains in the broodnest, and can't be moved out and up, I believe that's the main trigger for reproductive swarming. I believe backfilling is a result of limited nectar storage, not something done by the bees to instigate swarming.

>Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.<<

Well, I would say that this supports what I am saying. Swarming is flow driven.

>>At repro c/o, the established colony must revise the workforce make-up to gather, pre-dry, extend cell depth, and cap honey. They have not needed these workers through the swarm prep period. When the workforce is restructured, they are ready to store honey at efficient rates - known in some circles as "main flow." They make these personnel changes during a two to three week period following repro c/o. Since they are not generally storing overhead during this period, we refer to it as the (storage) lull.<<

Storage lull? Here, that 2-3 week period you talk about is a dearth between dandelion/fruit bloom/brambles and the main flow. What happens when the main flow begins and there are no supers or not enough supers on the hive? Swarm preparations.

One minute you're saying your repro swarms are different from swarms that issue later in the season, and then you say the later swarms are normal.
I guess I don't understand the difference Walt. Please explain how prime swarms issuing at different flow periods are different from each other.
 
#160 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Bernhard,
The opinion that the honeybee developed their survival format for the woodland is even less underpinned than a "myth." I may be the only person who believes the hypothesis has any merit. And I didn't start out with that opinion. While studying the internal operations of functional colonies, it suddenly occurred to me how well-suited their survival format was to life in the forest. Living the social insect life style and reproduction by colony division makes that really complex. Some of the features leading to the conclusion are included here:
..Mid winter brood rearing starts the seasonal format. Not many insects are active in the winter, but the bees have a lot to get done to issue a repro swarm at the peak of the spring flow - giving the swarm a chance at establishment on the flow trail off.
..In temperate (as opposed to tropical) areas, the bees need an enclosure to protect them from winter conditions. Millions of years ago, there were not many natural and suitable dry enclosures.
..If you believe old literature, the bees have special techniques for adapting the tree hollow for a permanent residence. I don't believe all I read, but tend to buy into features that I can see. The bees are given credit for being able to clean out punky wood and varnish the interior surfaces of the cavity with propolis down to the live wood. Then add propolis to wax at the comb attach points for structual strength. In short, we don't think that these special skills built into their instincts are an accident. The hollow tree IS their natural home.

And where would you expect to find hollow trees?

For the record, I disagree with most of your other comments. But nothing is gained by offering rebuttal. Neither of us would change our opinions.

Walt
 
#161 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

But nothing is gained by offering rebuttal. Neither of us would change our opinions.
Which opinion? I asked questions on facts that are unclear to me and provided some observations I made. I do not have opinions. Gave up on opinions, since their lifespan is short anyway. (At least if you have an open mind.)

I reckon you do no good to the checkerboarding as a system by interweaving mystic facts (read: cannot be proven) into it. I would drop those thoughts that "occured" to you suddenly. I do it all the time.
 
#164 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Daniel, you make some good points about later season swarms, but do you think their lack of instinctive ambition could be directly related to them having to construct the new nest during the time of the season that is less than ideal as far as incoming nectar and pollen sources? As you say, even 2-3 weeks between different swarms indicates a difference in how those two swarms approach building up going forward. Could it be that the availability of large amounts of pollen and nectar early, followed closely by a noticeable (as far as the bees are concerned) decrease in those incoming resources, is what defines the two kinds of swarming impulses and the industriousness of those two different swarms?
 
#167 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Jmgi.
in the case of my first swarm absolutely not. it came barely after what should have been the swarm season proper. and it never made any attempt at a significant build up even though it was hived in early June, it was still prime flow they all the way into November or further to avail themselves of forage and never did. Our last flow begins after first frost here. In the spring while all other hives where well into build up this hive never made any attempt. once I obtained cells from other hives that did attempt to swarm I requeened it. and it took right off. The overall impression to me was this hive had no intention of surviving.

Michael. I used the words Serious and Blatant because I consider them accurate as to what I see.


I am aware of claims of late season swarm that is caused by crowding but I have never seen one. Also the exact cause of these swarms seems to be a bit fuzzy. first it seems that crowding is the accepted cause yet other information indicates it would be extremely difficult to get a hive so crowded that it would swarm. Without seeing one for myself I cannot form my own conclusions.

As for what I have seen. Do I think these bees left for no other reason than to die? Yes. I have observed myself that there is no effort on the swarms part to survive, not in spring, summer fall winter or returning to spring surviving right through build up into the start of the main flow for a second time until they eventually where re queened.

In all it built up to 5 small pieces of comb. then just went stagnant and eventually fell back to a cluster no bigger than a baseball with a walnut size area of brood at best.

I am now seeing the same thing in a swarm we caught late season last year. I do not intend to give it nearly a full year to see what it does.

It first accoured to me that maybe these bees where a cluster waiting to die one day when I checked on them and actually said out loud. these bees are determined to die. I then sort of went with the default conclusion of. the most obvious answer is most likely the correct one. For me they do not act like swarms so I do not consider them swarms. just what they are. well that is my best guess.
 
#168 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Daniel, I have to say that in all the years I have had bees, I don't recall ever hiving a swarm during the swarm season and not have it build up normally like you would expect. I don't know why an early swarm like you had would just stagnate like that unless the queen was burned out.
 
#169 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

I'll have to agree with jmgi. Daniel, I think what you are experiencing with your swarms is the exception rather than the rule. I've hived a lot of swarms over the years, some were in July. I've never had a swarm shut down as you describe. They might run out of time to prepare properly for winter, but I've never had any kamikaze swarms that I can recall.

I don't have the answers, but my gut and personal experience tells me that mid to late season swarms are not all suicide flights.
 
#170 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

It still does not explain that then never attempted to supersede a queen if in fact she was just a failing queen. It woudl be expected that any swarm that leaves with the old queen will supersede her. or so I have heard. The only reason let this hive go so long was that one it was my first swarm. and second it was in my top bar hive and I really didn't care much what happened to it. I suppose ti is possible that the colony never got strong enough to attempt a supercedure. except they did not start out exactly small. they where not huge but it was not a tiny swarm by any means.

jmgi, keep in mind I do not consider this a swarm that was during normal swarm season. I am not sure if you mean any time a swarm might normally issue. but that distinction is actually what this conversation is about. I consider swarm period as that period defined by Walt as Repro Swarm period and am presenting the possibility that any thing mistaken as a swarm at any other time is in fact not a swarm but a function of some other purpose.
 
#172 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Ace, I saw the queen frequently over nearly a years time. She did produce brood just not a lot of it. It was not drone brood so she was not infertile. I am not sure poor mating results in less laying just more laying of drones. But she should still have laid a decent nest even if it was all drone. She simply did not lay much and none of the bees seemed to think they should do anything about it.

I have heard in the past that if bees are placed in to large of a space it can demoralize them. that was what I thought i was seeing at first. But over time I started getting the impression they where determined to just die.
 
#175 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Ace, I saw the queen frequently over nearly a years time. She did produce brood just not a lot of it.
I suppose the experts would ask, "why didn't you pinch her"? I would like to ask at this point how does a colony know whether their queen is any good or not when they all came from that queen?
 
#179 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

I would like to ask at this point how does a colony know whether their queen is any good or not when they all came from that queen?
I have no idea what they know or why they know it. How do they decide to supersede the queen? I suspect that casting off a queen may very well be just another way the bees dispose of a queen they have chosen to replace. I have also seen where they do not get rid of the old queen at all. so I know the details of replacing a queen vary.
 
#173 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Daniel, I was referring to the typical swarm season for me here in my area, which is May-June time frame. I do understand what you are referring to also about swarms after the "reproductive swarm period", but I don't understand how you are so sure that this particular swarm you spoke about earlier is not of the reproductive kind, you said it occured "barely" after the normal swarm time. I don't know if I would classify it as something other than a repro swarm just because it didn't build up normally as you would expect a prime swarm to do. Also, expecting a swarm to supercede a failing or old queen, if indeed it was, is not something I would bet on either. Bees sometimes will not supercede a queen that appears to us to be failing, and will supercede one that looks very prolific to us, I'm sure you have heard that saying before.
 
#177 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

jmgi, I do not consider that swarm a Repro swarm for no other reason than it did not act like one. As for the repro swarm period. At the time I captured the swarm I had no idea if it was swarm season or not. at that time I thought any time was swarm season. I was aware the spring was the main period of time for swarming. Based upon my tracking of the swarm period the following year it would have been from April 14th to just about the beginning of the last week in May. I woudl have to look up what date I got my last swarm call. In all I captured some 13 swarms. all of them thriving types. The swarm in question had been captured the previous year in the second week of June. I agree that is a short separation of time. but it is a separation of time. I do have further question of whether this first year swarm was actually cast in the Repro period because year two was an early year by quite a bit. The only thing I can add to the information about season one is that another beekeeper was able to put together and get built up a 5 frame nuc for me and had it to me on May 10th. That to me seems pretty consistent with the same sort of swarm period. if he had queens to make a nuc from I suspect they got started at or near that mid April mark. maybe even a bit sooner. I cannot say if the queen had been an over wintered one or not.

Ace, I did pinch her in the end. and pretty much as soon as I had queens to replace her with. Keep in mind I near had anything to compare this swarm to until the following spring when I started capturing other swarms. it was then that I got swarm after swarm that behaved entirely differently . building up to colonies that actually produced a little bit of honey. one of them later attempting to swarm again. So the entire picture did not come together for me for quite a while.

Michael. to cast off an undesirable queen. Either the colony pushed her out or she chose to leave on her own would be my guess. I suspect that is only one guess among many hundreds and the odds of it being correct are almost non existent.
Not knowing exactly what the difference is does not mean there is no difference. certainly not when a difference can bee seen.
 
#178 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Either the colony pushed her out or she chose to leave on her own would be my guess.
So far what I have read about bees the queen decides nothing. Certainly there is a difference between a repo swarm and a supercedure which is not a swarm at all. The bees don't leave. But when some of the bees do leave (with a queen) and it is a swarm, what is the difference regardless of when it happens?
 
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