Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

My swarm prevention system

68K views 180 replies 42 participants last post by  jmgi 
#1 ·
Mr. Palmer of VT stated on a thread a couple months back that anyone who said he could stop swarming was either a lier or a fool. He is a respected authority here on the forums. So, the statement must be true. Since I'm one of those persons who claims to stop swarming, I must be one or the other.

I'm not a lier. Learned as youngster that if one conducts himself in manner that he not ashamed of, there is never a reason to lie. Not many among us that can say truthfully that we didn't tell our parents a fib in our rebellious teen years.

That leaves a fool. After reflecting on that question for some time, I think I might qualify as a fool. I have a history of poor investments in marriage, business, and personal health. My beekeeping time has poor judgements in all of those categories. When I had a reliable swarm prevention system, abandoned my original objective of supplemental retirement income. Thought other beekeepers ought to know about it. Very naive! Not only did they not want know about it, they were quite abusive about telling me so. But I persist. Foolish, no?

Walt
 
#2 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Absolutely not. Unfortunately your system of checkerboarding has been misapplied by so many people who then declare that it doesn't work that people believe it. Also, it is often explained in rather complex terms of how why and when it works instead of a simple how to do it form. As many times as I have read over it I'm only about 80% sure that I know how you do it - so please correct me if I am wrong...

1) Overwinter in a single deep brood box (with a shallow super of honey on top?)

2) In early-mid February - before any initial swarm prep - or nectar storage begins (In middle TN) checker board the honey by interleaving empty drawn comb (from extracted honey) with the honey frames in the super - resulting in two shallow supers where every other frame is empty comb with capped honey between it, and the honey on top is over a frame of empty comb in the super below it. This manipulation does not in any way involve the brood nest - don't mess with the brood nest at all at this time.

3) Install supers of empty comb before the cluster gets to the top of the stack - without an excluder.

If you don't have enough supers of drawn comb to do all of this, then don't expect complete swarm prevention - foundation will not work at any point.

If you don't use single deeps and shallow supers then you are on your own to experiment and work it out.

Is that correct?
 
#3 ·
#5 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

In early-mid February - before any initial swarm prep - or nectar storage begins (In middle TN) checker board the honey by interleaving empty drawn comb (from extracted honey) with the honey frames in the super - resulting in two shallow supers where every other frame is empty comb with capped honey between it

Don't the bees eat the honey over winter? Why would you have a completely full honey super on top of another deep all winter if they don't need those stores? For the most part I have the exact opposite problem, by Feb early march the top box is empty.

~Matt
 
#6 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Don't the bees eat the honey over winter? Why would you have a completely full honey super on top of another deep all winter if they don't need those stores? For the most part I have the exact opposite problem, by Feb early march the top box is empty.

~Matt[/QUOTE]

So you can use it to checkerboard to prevent swarming - before they eat it. Which will be different in Illinois than it is in TN. And then they will eat it. Read the articles if you are interested. Or don't.

And BTW, a basic principle of swarm prevention is to at least add supers before they get to the top. So by the time that top box is gone your bees are probably already counting the days until they leave.
 
#7 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

if nasa can trust walt, maybe we can too.

(walt manned a station at mission control during the apollo moon shots)

and having met walt in person and having spent some hours discussing bees i can vouch for the fact that walt is no fool.

(unless of course i am, and that's possible... :lookout:)

what walt is not saying in his op is that he had a run of several seasons with zero swarms.

that may be hard for some to believe, but i do.

i just completed my third full season with bees, and so far every one of my colonies have swarmed every year, except the ones this year that i had enough comb and honey to properly follow walt's checkboarding technique.

as expected, the ones that didn't swarm gave me 2 to 3 times more harvestable honey than the ones that did swarm.

david is right in that there is confusion about what checkerboarding is and isn't. the pov articles are good, but not as good as walt's manuscript.

the manuscript is currently only available directly from walt, and i heartily recommend it to everyone regardless of whether you are in the north or south, and regardless of what size boxes you run. i found it to be one of the most insightful works on colony dynamics through the year that i have read.

there was some discussion about making the manscript available for purchase here on the forum. it sure would helpful if we were all on the same page when discussing this topic. barry? walt? can it be done?
 
#8 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Walt, do you really feel that some people think you are lying or even a fool? I don't see it even from M Palmer that you have singled out. I see two well experienced beekeepers who have different approaches to raising bees. Would anyone think M Bush is a liar or a fool? His approach is different still.
 
#9 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Thank you, David. Your summary of the basic concept is correct. Item 1 has been revised over the years. We now overwinter with an empty shallow of drawn comb on the bottom and two shallows of honey above the deep basic broodnest. The empty shallow on the bottom is last year's pollen box, left in place overwinter, and used to CB the top shallow of honey in Feb. The pollen box maneuver is not related to swarm prevention, but is a feature incorporated to improve colony wintering.

Walt
 
#15 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

and used to CB the top shallow of honey in Feb. Walt
Is February the start of Spring in Tennessee? I don't think so. When I read the pamphlet I got the impression it was the start of brood expansion, way before spring. That is not so easy to do up here and maybe not so good to do up here in the north country. It might work great in warmer climates.
 
#10 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

So you can use it to checkerboard to prevent swarming - before they eat it.

I'm not following. Are you saying that you should have enough honey on each hive so that come spring there will be enough left that you can checkerboard the top box?

Let me see if I can clarify.

I winter in two deeps. The bottom is typically where they start out the cluster and it is has some stores on the outside going into winter. The top deep is typically almost entirely stores, maybe a few of the middle frames are empty.

By Late February early March there typically is not a whole lot left in either box. In order to checkerboard at this point I would need a third deep and I would have to checkerboard the two top deeps leaving me with three deeps, the top two both with half honey.

Read the articles if you are interested.


I've read a few of them but only last year did I have enough drawn comb to do much of anything with.

~Matt
 
#11 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Greetings,
I can not recall the exact year that I met Walt Wright beekeeper extraordinaire but I have NEVER had a swarm since. The point is not how much honey you have left above the brood nest in late winter, early spring, the point is to break up any honey block created by these remaining stores by Checkerboarding the frames how ever many or few there are so the bees can build up threw them so as not to trigger swarm prep. Am I right, Walt?
 
#13 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Radar,
Thanks for the links. Went back to see what was written about CB in TN. Wow!! Mostly obsolete. We have not done any broodnest disturbance in years. My current opinion is that any broodnest jockeying delays development. During the recovery period, other things important to the colony are not getting done.
And that was written while I was calling redbud the trigger for swarming - used for backfilling the broodnest. I now see backfilling as a major step in the overall instinctive process. My opinions matured with further study of the process.

Walt
 
#14 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Checkerboarding becomes cumbersome if you use deeps, so I've started to experiment with using two mediums on top of a deep with an empty one below here in Southern Indiana to see if I can repeat Walt's experience.

I've had bees winter on rather less stores than I though would be necessary, but I don't have enough years at this to say for certain that a single deep with only a small amount of extra above will make it through every year, but a deep and a medium seems to be more than adequate so far. Two mediums is safer since it's impossible to predict winter weather with any reliability this early in the year.

The key to the whole idea is the empty comb above the brood nest -- it might work if you just put an empty super of drawn comb in there, but alternating empty and capped comb allows plenty of honey to be just outside the brood nest.

I finally have the required materials to checkerboard next spring, and hope to avoid what I'm fairly sure was swarming this year (neighbor reported a cluster of bees in the trees in his yard about the time the population dropped somewhat in my hives). Whatever happens it cannot be worse than loosing half my bees in the middle of the spring flow!

And just for clarity, I will repeat Walt's theory -- the presence of empty comb in sufficient quantities ABOVE (not IN) the brood nest tricks the bees into "thinking" that they do not have adequate stores to swarm, so they supercede or simply fill up the hive with honey instead. Opening the brood nest is a completely different system - I suspect it would be a poor idea to checkerboard frames if they have brood in them.

Peter
 
#16 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Walt,

a lot of people in Germany did buy the manuscript a couple of years ago and tried it and failed. I bought it, too, but never really understood the underlying concept and didn't get it working over here. I has been a time ago, but I remember something like the apple bloom as the time to checkerboard? Now in February? That is pretty early and in the midst of the winter. The bees need the most of their stores in March and April to raise and warm the young bees. Isn't it kind of dangerous to checkerboard in such a situation? We have sometimes a very cold spell at this time of year and brood easily gets chilled if the broodnest is not compact enough, because the cluster doesn't cover all of the brood.

Some other rather basic questions:

If you feed syrup for winter stores, you can't checkerboard, right? I mean without mixing syrup and honey while breaking up the "honey" cap. (Syrup cap that is.)

What happens if the broodnest is backflooded in strong flow? I can't think of any way to prevent this, even with lots and lots of empty comb. Does the queen stops laying and nothing else happens?

Other thought. Could it be bee race depend? Many of us keep Carnolians over here, which are a bit swarmier than others. Also they tend to store nectar close to the broodnest and not distant to the nest.

What is the significant difference between giving a super with emtpy but drawn comb and checkerboarding?

Sorry for so many questions, but I really want to checkerboarding, which I failed so far.

And yes, a video blog would be nice. The available videos on youtube do not explain checkerboarding much, I reckon.

 
#21 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

What is the significant difference between giving a super with emtpy but drawn comb and checkerboarding?
bernhard, our spring was delayed here by several weeks this year, which caused me to have several hives with only 2-3 empty supers of comb above the single deep. instead of moving the broodnest up into all of that empty comb, the bees stopped a gap between boxes and made a solid band of honey at the top. they started capping at the top, backfilling their way down to the deep and swarmed.

having checkerboard honey will hopefully keep them moving up. i saw this happen in the few hives that had some honey left in the supers by the time the nectar flows started up. they did not 'dome' the top of the working space with capped honey, and they superceded their queen without swarming.
 
#17 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

The point is not how much honey you have left above the brood nest in late winter, early spring, the point is to break up any honey block created by these remaining stores

That makes sense to me. If you're coming out of winter with massive amounts of stores and no place to lay then you're going to trigger a swarm.

So far I've only gone thru two winters. First one was un historically warm and short. The hives did come out of winter with considerable stores and with what little drawn come I had I tried to give them room. Last year however was pretty long and pretty cold. Those few hives I had that survived were pretty much cleaned out, empty on the top with nothing blocking their growth.

From reading the original statement I was thinking he was suggesting adding honey to the top box and that did not make sense to me, not to mention that in order to make that happen over a long winter you'd have to have 3, maybe more, boxes to be able to add to the top box.

~Matt
 
#20 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

brian, the tree pollen starts coming in down here late january/early february, and is used along with the overwintered honey to start broodrearing and brood nest expansion, it's not really spring per se, but the beginning of broodrearing.

the idea is to have the supers checkerboarded by the time the red maples bloom, whenever that may be for your area.
 
#22 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

the idea is to have the supers checkerboarded by the time the red maples bloom, whenever that may be for your area.
A red maple? May, I think dandelions are out in April. That is a whole different perspective. The thing is I do think brood nest expansion does happen in the end of February. up here. I would like to know if I am all wet on this thought if the experts would like to set me straight.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
Re: "lier or a fool"

Hi Guys

I just don't understand what's so hard about checker boarding. The process is simple. And the only real criteria is that it's done early enough.

I've checker boarded hives for years. And after running them that way, I've run them un-checker boarded as a test.

Early last season, my hives were very strong and healthy. But circumstances prevented me from checker boarding them. And that combined with a spat of bad weather, caused them to suffered.

I know all beekeeping is local. But checker boarding works with my non-migratory, 3 deep hives. Other than feeding starving hives, it's the only management practice I consider absolutely essential. Once they are checkerboarded, I can forget about them, for the season, if I want to.

And thanks to Walt I know about checker boarding. I certainly wouldn't have thought of it myself.

Thanks Walt.

Regards - Dennis
 
#26 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Ouch! It's a rough day when I have to be corrected by an acebird. Got it now, with an A.
My dictionary has it.
B.H.
Don't know what you folks did to get the wrong answers. Not using jumbos for hive bodies, are you?
To your questions:
Apple blossom is issue season here. To be effective, CB should be accomplished about 8 weeks earlier. (Pre swarm preps)
Feeding syrup in late winter should not be a problem. When CB is working, the brood nest will grow through that earlier syrup with broodnest expansion.
Brood chilling is not a problem. The manipulation is done above the broodnest, in the overhead capped honey. No broodnest disturbance.
There is no backfilling of the broodnest until the colony reaches reproductive cut off. The broodnest expands continuously until the time. Candidly, can't say I understand why it works that way. Just report what I see. At repro c/o the broodnest starts to recede with backfilling.

Don't think it is race dependent. Tried all the races available to me, including Russions. Couldn't find a source for gray caucasions. The fact that all races responded the same, makes me think that the technique taps some ancient instinct that was present when the bees expanded their range into Europe.

The difference between empty comb and CBed is a tough question. The best I can do is provide a couple of observations. The colony seems to perceive the top of their capped honey as the top of their cavity. That's true in the wild nest.
The colony "wants" to save a reserve of capped honey at the top of their cavity to carry them through the temporary period of max broodnest expansion. That reserve amount is approximately a shallow of capped honey, but some will save a full medium. ( The peak expansion is specifically to rear young bees to issue as a repro swarm.) Backfilling gets the broodnest back to proportional to cavity size, among other advantages.
The colony does not seem to be able to tell the difference between a solid super of honey and one with alternate empty frames.

If you understand those observations, perhaps you would like to guess why the difference. Am open to suggestions.

Walt
 
#31 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Apple blossom is issue season here. To be effective, CB should be accomplished about 8 weeks earlier. (Pre swarm preps)
"April showers bring May flowers." 8 weeks before is the end of February or the beginning of March. Might be safe to do in Long Island which is like the coast of NJ but I wouldn't suggest doing it here and certainly not where Mark and M Palmer live.
 
#27 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Dennis,
Thanks again. I had forgot just how good your blog was. You do a much better job of explaining the details than I. I'm sure your commercial background helps.

I started from scratch with no help from beginner books, introductory classes, or club meetings. Didn't even know they existed. I let the bees teach me what they thought I should know.

Walt
 
#29 ·
Re: "lier or a fool"

Walt and all, thanks for the replies.

The standard management over here in Germany is to remove all empty (brood) combs and restrict the bees onto the combs that are covered with bees. This can be 5-7 deep frames. This usually is in March, so pretty early. This way the bees are compacted and this helps warming in the sometimes very cold late spells we have.

All excess food combs (thus syrup) gets removed and is tucked away for making splits later. Bees are forced to eat up the food dome on the combs they sit on. (No stores can be moved closer to the broodnest. Bees move stores around in Spring, closer to the broodnest.)

As soon as the bees are out foraging for their first pollen, the hive gets supered. The experts here super with a shallow containing three to four drawn but empty combs in the center, the rest filled up with foundations.

(Beekeepers here do not want to extract honey from former broodnest combs, why they rather let the bees build fresh comb above the excluder. Also most beekeepers pay close attention not to mix up winter feed with the fresh honey.)

Being compacted on few combs, the bees readily take the super and start storing the nectar there, the first batch of young bees start working the foundation quickly and within a week (first white wax on topbars can be found at beginning of May) the super is drawn, immediately supered with another super. But this time a queen excluder in between. Again: center combs empty drawn comb and filled up with foundation. This is repeated up to four supers. (Shallows. Less with deeper frames.) With Buckfast bees the supers are just put on top. While with Carnolians it is necessary to put the new supers under the already filled super in order to prevent backflooding, because Carnolians store nectar close to the broodnest, no matter what.

In mid May and mid June some frames of brood are taken to make small splits and dampen the exploding increase of the hive population a little. Winter food combs, that has been taken before, are used for making the splits.

The goal is to get the bees into an upward motion. Just as I understand you do with checkerboarding. Keeping the broodnest free from backflooding.


That described management does delay swarming for quite a long time. One month or so. Natural swarming occurs end of May here, right after the first main flow at start of May. Next main flow is mid June and beginning of July.

So if I understand checkerboarding right, it achieves the same goal: breaking up the honey/food dome and getting the bees into an upward motion. ("Up into the sky" a friend of mine says.)

Anyway, cut-off date seems to be 21st of June, which is the summer soltice. Until then it is almost impossible to prevent the broodnest from backflooding, no matter what you do. Even if you delay swarming a little at mid June the bees try to swarm. Most beekeepers here remove the old queen and replace her with a young one 18 days later. Breaking cells two times in a 9 day intervall. Which breaks any swarm tendency for 100 %.

This is the golden standard:

- compact broodnest in March
- super in April
- keep supering as supers get filled
- one or two brood frame split in mid May
- requeen in June, breaking cells two times per hive.

It is not too much work. I also tend to requeen in mid May already, right when the colonies start to crowd, with some sort of "on the spot queen rearing" in distant non-migratory apiaries, which works great and is even less work. (Visit one time to remove the queen, another time seven days later to break all cells except one. That's it. It sure means some honey loss. But not significantly.)

The golden standard works with all sorts of (vertically oriented) hives.

The question that remains for me is, if you really can increase the broodnest significantly, since some bee scientists found out a close relationship between outside daily maximum temperature and egg. From my observation I can verify this.

From what I observed so far, swarming preparation starts when bees:brood-ratio starts to drop below 120 % after the first increase in early Spring. I compared it to the description of the checkerboarding dates and it pretty much matches.

In early Spring the broodnest expands and the winter bees care for the brood. The ratio bees to brood is 1 to 4 or even 1 to 6. So one nurse bee is caring for a many broodcells and larvae. The broodnest expands more and more. The first young bees emerge and take of the nursing. At a certain point the ratio between bees and brood is converging again = 1:5 > 1:4 > 1:3 and so on. Until it drops below 150 %. This is the time when queen cells appear.

I reckon this is due to the "smell" (hormons released by the larvae and distributed in the hive and between bees). Means the bees notice that there are more than enough bees to split up/swarm and still they can care for the brood. (One bee can nurse multiple brood cells.) The whole nest smells like brood in early Spring. Pollen intake is immense. Once the nest is full of emerged bees, the nest smells different, maybe in human terms "ripe".

I did some experiments this year with artificially keeping the ratio between bees and brood above 150 %, so I provided lots of fresh brood and took bees from the hives by shaking in order to keep up the ratio. Hives didn't swarm.

I wonder how this matches with checkerboarding. Maybe the broodnest expansion by checkerboarding keeps up the ratio.

Just thoughts, sorry for the long post.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top