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Are the Canadians wrong?

20K views 35 replies 15 participants last post by  Acebird 
#1 ·
Catch the Buzz:

“We have concluded that current agricultural practices related to the use of neonicotinoid-treated corn and soybean seed are not sustainable,” the agency says in a statement.

I tried this thread yesterday and didn't phrase the title correctly. I didn't mean to insult anyone.
 
#6 ·
Can you explain that? If it were just the planting practices why would it happen everywhere? Isn't it the chemical that is killing the bees? I thought when the chemical hits the ground it becomes inert. Can't be if the bees die from contact with the dust. Most of the dust is going to hit the ground, no?
 
#8 ·
It's more than just planter dust that's impacting the bees.

Since neonics are both water soluble and can have long half lives in soil, they can 'translocate' away from the coated seed and affect pollinators that way.

There's a broader environmental contamination issue that needs much closer scrutiny.
 
#10 ·
It's more than just planter dust that's impacting the bees. Since neonics are both water soluble and can have long half lives in soil, they can 'translocate' away from the coated seed and affect pollinators that way. There's a broader environmental contamination issue that needs much closer scrutiny.
A Bayer rep could take you out to the GMO corn monocultures that were planted with neonic coated seed and show you the wildflowers growing next to the cornfield are teaming with wild pollinators like those shown in this 3 minute video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS7xnDRGYjk
 
#9 ·
It's truly a disastrous substance to be proliferating around the globe. As we pretty much only grow corn and soy in this province, I strongly suspect the officials are doing their best do downplay the catastrophy for the sake of supporting big industry.

 
#13 · (Edited)
BD:

The neonic translocation issue isn't my own assertion but has been cited in the literature for a while now.

I'm not convinced that all of Canada's bee kills are strictly 'fugitive dust' related.

On the other hand, the scientific consensus for causes of Honeybee losses includes nutrition, disease, genetics, and pesticides.

We should ask, "How are they interacting in the case of the reported Honeybee losses in Canada?"

It's easy to miss something fundamental when our attention is misdirected.

My greatest concern for pollinator health is the spillover of diseases like those caused by emerging viruses.

DWV spilling over from Honeybees into the common eastern bumble bee is one example.
 
#14 ·
I believe that it is not only happening in Canada, but many other places. What we have in Ontario and Quebec and probably some of the other provinces is a easy process of reporting and investigating pesticide kills. I am pretty sure that this is lacking in the majority of the US. In Ontario, if you report a pesticide kill to the PMRA they come to your yard with a provincial bee inspector to investigate. The bee inspector examines the hive for signs of other disease and samples are taken back for laboratory testing. Does this happen in your state? If not, you have a big problem. How do you keep track of what you aren't investigating? How do you even know if you have a problem?

A lot of the spring kills here from neonics were acute poisoning. Large population loss (majority of the foragers) with plenty of dead bees out front with pollen. Strong hives were hit hardest. A lot of these incidents coincided closely with planting. Acute poisoning where the majority of dead foragers test positive for the same pesticide are pretty hard to refute.

The chronic effects of neonics are more difficult. This can come from a less than lethal dose of dust or from pollen collected from treated plants. When the colonies are under this pressure on top of mites, viruses etc it is tough to prove what exactly killed them. Increased average winter losses here closely correlates with the widespread use of neonics. Of course correlation is not causation, but the rest of the rest of the pressures (mites, etc) were existing before this.

There is also some question as to whether neonics themselves are very effective. Here is one local farmer's thoughts:

http://www.edibletoronto.com/compon...azine/fall-2013/1075-fall-2013-neonicotinoids
 
#19 ·
In five years this is the first time I've had to do any significant amount of feeding, but I don't think my recent observations are 100% unique. Yesterday, only after I added a top feeder, they were buzzing all around me at a much greater distance than they normally would after really shaking up a hive and getting them angry, starting up orientation flights and investigating random things like my bag of smoker wood. I only looked at two frames before adding the feeders on my two hives. Didn't give them any other reason to change their behaviour.

I also keep hives on an warehouse roof. Usually I don't see any bees till I get close to the hives. When I fed last week and returned 24 hours later to top them up, I was greeted 75 meters away and two stories down from the hives with bees trying to determine if I was a flower. At the hives, they were doing orientation flights non-stop:



I watched the entrances for a long time and feel fairly confident they were not robbers. I'm pretty sure they get the signal that there's food coming in from close by and start searching for it where they normally would, outside the hive.
 
#20 ·
I guess I haven't noticed that so much when I have fed, but you are correct. When I have fed it seems as though bees look for ways to work on other hives. But I can see where they may seem to have a "Where did that stuff come from? Where can I find more?" sort of focus. Good point.
 
#21 ·
I've seen stories lately connecting HFCS to CCD. Natural honey supports a colony's immune system, but replacing it with GMO-based corn syrup just adds insult to injury, lowering their defences against the pesticide cocktail they bring in with the pollen. I'm sticking to honey food stores in the winter for now. Let's see how I do.
 
#22 ·


The above video is from the fall.

This is the link to the report on the spring deaths.

Samples of dead bees were collected for pesticide residue analysis along with live bees, comb with pollen and honey stores, vegetation, water, and soil

Preliminary residue results show that approximately 75% of the dead bee samples had detectable residues of neonicotinoid insecticides used to treat corn and soybeanseed

Residues of neonicotinoid insecticides were detected in samples from approximately 80% of the beekeepers for which samples have been analyzed.
Clothianidin and/or thiamethoxam were detected in > 90% of the comb pollen samples from affected yards and were also detected in some water, soil, and comb honey samples.
 
#23 ·
Detectable amounts, okay. What are the actual amounts? Are they lethal or sub-lethal? What is the lethal amount? We all have various amounts of things in detectable amounts in our systems too. Yep, we'll all die no matter what. Will any of those sub-lethal things be directly responsible for our deaths? Nope, they're sub-lethal. Combined will they contribute to our deaths? Possibly but doubtful. Until it's proven in a repeatable, scientifically accepted manner I'm going to go enjoy my life and leave the worrying and teeth gnashing to others.
 
#32 ·
Detectable amounts, okay. What are the actual amounts?
From the report linked above:



Are they lethal or sub-lethal? What is the lethal amount?
Good question. How much of this stuff in your pollen/honey/soil/water would you consider safe? When it was approved, was it based on an understanding that the chemical would remain under a certain level in pollen/honey/soil/water?
 

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#24 ·
Sub lethal means it won't kill you now it does not mean it won't shorten your live by 10 or more years. Now in a bees life does it make a difference to a hive if the bees life is shortened by a few weeks?
 
#25 ·
Now in a bees life does it make a difference to a hive if the bees life is shortened by a few weeks?

Really Acebird?

You don't believe that reducing the bees lifespan by "a few weeks" would have an impact on the colony? Really?

A few weeks in the summer would be 50% of their life....

A few weeks off the lives of winter bees and there's chilled brood and or a dead colony.
 
#27 ·
Prove it! Until claims or hunches can be proven, they aren't worth the powder to blow them to heck in the scientific or legal world (in the US). That's why no one has been able to legally pin this on Big Ag here. There are teams of US environmental lawyers salivating for this to gain traction and earn billions in judgments, ...but it doesn't. It can't be proven (except for dust drift exposure during improper planting). In the US it's "innocent until proven guilty."

That's when those with that axe to grind turn to trying to influencing public perception and toss out innuendos and 1/2 truths hoping to fool the majority who swallow it as a know truth. They in turn spout it as truth and the perception spreads. (I love setting the record straight when people assume because I'm a beekeeper I buy the neonic hype.) Actual truth is secondary in this scenario, that and "guilty until proven innocent" is how Europe ended up with a 2 year exploratory ban. They are exploring it because they don't know what it will actually do, and the door is open to bring the product(s) back .
 
#29 ·
They should have to prove that they are entirely safe BEFORE they are allowed to be used.
Well, many things are poisonous in some manner. For instance, "soap" is a poison if you ingest the wrong amount. Are you proposing that soap be illegal? :eek:

Too much water is not very healthy either!

:ws:

As the saying goes, "The devil is in the details!"

Note that food grade mineral oil, has another name, i.e. horticultural oil. And guess what, horticultural oil is used to kill all manner of insects in agricultural settings. It will kill bees as well.
 
#33 ·
We do know that neonics are acting as environmental contaminants. We're also learning more and more about how they're impacting bees.

Bees are considered to be both a keystone and an indicator species by many.

Dave Mendes said that Honeybees are indicators of environmental quality, and I agree.
 
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