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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Palm Bach, FL, USA
    Posts
    78

    Default Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Florida beekeepers are required to have an annual inspection of their apiary.

    Checking Item No. 7 on the inspection report enrolls you in a voluntary "Best Management Practices." I do not know why a beekeeper would agree to additional regulations (creating additional legal liability) without receiving any benefit in return for the additional legal liability.

    The Best Management Practices are in a separate document:

    http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Divi...ection#geninfo

    The voluntary "Best Management Practices" includes:

    "10. Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months unless using marked or clipped queens and having in possession a bill of sale from a EHB Queen Producer." This recommended now, but is supposed to become mandatory next year.

    "11. Immediately re-queen with a European Queen if previously installed clipped or marked queen is found missing."

    "12. Maintain one European drone source colony (250 square inches of drone comb) for every 10 colonies in order to reduce supercedure queens mating with AHB drones."

    The age old advice: Read the report before you sign.
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Zone 10a; Elevation 13 feet

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Knox, Pa. USA
    Posts
    879

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    its all in a name< By checking the box it allows people to brag about being in the "Best" management practices program. therefor it means they are better beekeepers, just like being a treatment free keeper make you more natural and caring for the bees.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    High Springs, FL
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Do you have links/info to bmp 10 becoming mandatory next year? Seems a bit draconian.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,431

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    This has been discussed. See AmericasBeekeeper response in the thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...every-6-months.

    Mr Clean - Is there something you are unhappy about here? This is the 2nd time you've brought this up. Please state your concerns plainly. Best Management Plans are in my opinion a good thing.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    I'm interested in the facts so I will follow this thread to see what I can learn.
    I will TRY to refrain from speculation.

    I hope that beekeepers educate themselves. It's not that difficult if you have a few hives to maintain the required drone amount and get the queen you want to breed from "certified".

    Hopefully people don't resort to bringing in drone stock from the great white North but if they do I know a guy that will send you some

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,492

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    The only really ferocious bees I've ever seen are F1 hybrids. If everyone in an AHB area keeps requeening with pure Italian stock you will get a lot of those F1 hybrid, ferocious bees. If everyone in an AHB area would breed from local stock and requeen the hot ones, you would end up with much less ferocious bees. These are NOT "Best" practices. The results will be the opposite of what is intended.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    lafargeville ny usa
    Posts
    255

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    requeening every 6 months seems like the state of florida is saying florida queens are worthless....or there is a payoff going on?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Lots of EHB breeders here and I'm sure they ship to every state in the country. I understand the requirement to re-queen IF you participate in BMP to be, Re-queen every 6 months IF your queen isn't marked or clipped or you haven't had the breeding stock certified (tested by the state).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    1,822

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The only really ferocious bees I've ever seen are F1 hybrids. If everyone in an AHB area keeps requeening with pure Italian stock you will get a lot of those F1 hybrid, ferocious bees. If everyone in an AHB area would breed from local stock and requeen the hot ones, you would end up with much less ferocious bees. These are NOT "Best" practices. The results will be the opposite of what is intended.
    I don't understand how the mechanics of this would work. Can you explain a little bit more?
    If everyone keeps EHB doesn't that add EHB to the drone pool?

    Are you suggesting people in AHB areas select for temperament from feral AHB stock or try to select EHB stock from the feral population?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Palm Bach, FL, USA
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    Mr Clean - Is there something you are unhappy about here? This is the 2nd time you've brought this up. Please state your concerns plainly. Best Management Plans are in my opinion a good thing.
    Andrew: My issue is to sign up for these additional regulations, all you have to do is check a box on the inspection report. My inspector had checked the box without asking me. I read it and had her remove it. Same thing happened to a friend of mine. My point is beekeepers should make an informed decision. Our inspector is new and is a nice person, so I'm not saying anything negative about her. I doubt she would have pre-checked the box, unless encouraged by her superiors. I just hope beekeepers make an informed decision.
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Zone 10a; Elevation 13 feet

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Palm Bach, FL, USA
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    These are NOT "Best" practices. The results will be the opposite of what is intended.
    Michael: Thanks for visiting us here in Palm Beach and sharing your insights and wisdom. We had people driving from as far away as Miami and Ft Myers to hear you speak. You really presented your information in such a simple, common sense way.
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Zone 10a; Elevation 13 feet

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,431

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Thank you for expressing your concern clearly Mr Clean. All I can say is that the different states run Apiary Inspection very differently. Some states have done away with their services completely. In Maine at present we have 1 inspector and a part time assistant - both are extremely knowledgeable. If I can get inspected every two years I do, but inspecting hobbyist bee hives is not the first priority for our state Apiarist - rather from what I can gather inspecting migratory bees and issuing the requisite travel permits is priority #1. Our state Apiarist also teaches the diseases and pests class at most bee schools - and he visits clubs throughout the year - also he is the one at the state level that responds to nuisance bee reports. Add to that overall concern with the health of bees in the state (tracking down AFB outbreaks) and responding to panicked e-mail from beekeepers! Our state Apiarist is unfortunately closer to retirement age than he once was and I worry about what the future will bring to Apiary services. This is one department in state government that I would gladly see enlarged. I learn something every-time I work with him.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Laurel Hill, Fl
    Posts
    324

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Best practices are great, right up until they become mandatory. Mandatory implies that failure to comply results in some adverse reaction. So the inspector comes and discovers my queens aren't marked and clipped. Do they shut me down, take my hives, fine me.... I can't imagine re-queening every six months... I can imagine queen farms lobbying to force me to re-queen every six month.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Palm Bach, FL, USA
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Mbeck: My understanding is that the most ferocious bees are where a AHB drone mates with a EHB queen to create an F1 hybrid. Matings of EHB drone and AHB queen supposedly result in a tamer bee than a AHB/AHB mating. In Florida, inspectors will collect bee samples and send to University of Florida for DNA testing. If the bees have AHB genes, then order the hive requeened. The selection process is based on genetics, rather than the bees temperament. So a hot Russian hive will be OK, but a tame AHB hive will need to be requeened.

    EHB are the result of thousands of years of beekeepers selecting bees for 1) tameness and 2) productivity. The new method selects bees on DNA testing, rather than characteristics of tameness and productivity. Beekeepers have bred EHB's to be 50% larger, which makes them slower than AHB, reducing their chances of mating with queens. The larger EHB drones cannot fly as long due to it's size, so the AHB can fly much longer, increasing AHB mating chances. Beekeepers have bred EHB to have low drone count, so they have less drones to compete with AHB in breeding. The "Best" practices of the past created conditions to create the current AHB problem.
    Last edited by Mr_Clean; 09-12-2013 at 09:35 AM.
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Zone 10a; Elevation 13 feet

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    43,492

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    >If everyone keeps EHB doesn't that add EHB to the drone pool?

    In theory. But you have a large feral population. We have bred EHB to be reproductively challenged for many years. They have been bred to make less drones, raised on large cell foundation so they are larger (and the proportionate drones are larger) and slower and can't fly for as long. AHB make more drones and they can fly faster and longer. The odds of those EHB drones being successful are much lower than the odds of the AHB being successful. It is more likely your superseded queen will mate with AHB drones than EHB drones.

    >Are you suggesting people in AHB areas select for temperament from feral AHB stock or try to select EHB stock from the feral population?

    I would give up on the labels of EHB and AHB and breed for temperament. If they are mean, requeen. If they are nice, keep them. Bringing in outside genes just makes bees that are way past just hot and all the way to ferocious. I've worked bees in many places that are claimed to be entirely AHB. They were manageable. I have seen crossbreeds, however, that were not manageable at all. I have seen crossbreeds of Italians and AMM that were ferocious back before there was any talk of AHB. F1 hybrids tend to be defensive to the extreme. I know many people collecting swarms in LA, San Francisco, New Mexico, Arizona, Florida, Virgin Islands and other places considered Africanized. They are not having issues with ferocious bees. They occasionally get some that are too hot and they requeen. But it's the same with EHB areas. Some ferals are hot and you requeen. Most are not too hot.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    488

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > I've worked bees in many places that are claimed to be entirely AHB. They were manageable. ,,,, Some ferals are hot and you requeen. Most are not too hot.
    I've worked bees in Costa Rica (3 years), Guatemala and Michoacan, Mexico (seasons). Latin American AHB are *not* just hot bees. These bees will turn on the keeper. There were deaths among experienced keepers in all the regions I worked in.

    There are practical steps you can take: full protective gear (no sandals), you move the hive to separate dark location to manipulate (leave a box for the foragers to "defend"), you keep the hives small (no 3 deep Ivian castles).

    There is sort of a "new myth" being promulgated that AHB in the SW are just mis-understood and need to be loved, and these genes are being pushed into breeding programs for their vigor and distributed all over the country. It is possible we are finally seeing a hybrid behavior zone. I am skeptical, as a mixed behavior/genotype has been promoted as moderating AHB since they crossed the Darien Gap. I am skeptical their is a "cold limit" to AHB.

    I've been to tragic funerals that attest that AHB are not just mis-understood. They do seem whump on Varroa though.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    lee county, fl, usa
    Posts
    736

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The only really ferocious bees I've ever seen are F1 hybrids. If everyone in an AHB area keeps requeening with pure Italian stock you will get a lot of those F1 hybrid, ferocious bees. If everyone in an AHB area would breed from local stock and requeen the hot ones, you would end up with much less ferocious bees. These are NOT "Best" practices. The results will be the opposite of what is intended.
    This is the kind of info I want to give to my legislator if it comes to mandatory re-queening with store bought queens ("certified").

    I have done plenty of cut outs, bait catches, a few swarm removals and I know for sure that even the hottest hives were not africanized. They were just hot, and I requeened.
    I plan to start raising my own queens now (almost hate to post that) as I"ve never planned on BMP, I"m doiing MBP.
    "Rule Three of beekeeping...Never cease to feel wonder" Laurie R. King--
    March 2010; +/- 30 hives, TF

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    If the premise is that regardless of all practices our EHB Queens are going to find and mate with AHB drones and create the super mean F1 hybrid which is as (some state as fact) many times meaner than AHB then we should ban EHB. It doesn't seem like you can have it both ways. I not buying it, but maybe I don't understand.

    It would be nice if the tables where to flip and we could complain about that "worthless, weak doesnt have to fight varroa all winter northern stock" polluting our naturally adapted wonder bees genetics and making it insanely mean.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,425

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    They wont become mandatory...they dont have to. My guess is that insurance underwriters will refuse to cover operations that dont adhere to BMPs.

    Deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,431

    Default Re: Florida Beekeepers - Important Information

    Are people missing this regarding queen replacement: unless using marked? Marking is so easy - clipping is a practice I don't like - what is being asked is that the beekeeper pay attention to what is going on in their hive. I don't see how this is a bad thing. {though I get that some people don't like being told to do anything by government}

    And Dean, what is this insurance you speak of? Ok I'm being a bit facetious, but hobbyists typically do not carry any beekeeping insurance, professionals are another matter.

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