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  1. #21
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    Apr 2013
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    Vancouver, BC, Canada
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    1,335

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRW View Post
    Here we go again !

    :
    Why do so many threads on this forum degenerate into treat vs don't treat?

    As a newbie I am treating...how successfully who knows. IF my hives get through the winter then I will have enough to try splits. IF I can do that with success I will have 2 hive populations. One I will continue to treat. The other I will use for trying different approaches. Same beekeeper, same location, same original stock...it will be interesting to see what happens.
    IF the less/non treated stock survive and thrive I would anticipate they will be to build from.

    And yes...newbies get very confused when there is so much conflict to follow...but then we are learning as there are many was to do things on the path to the same destination.
    Thanks to all who participate.

  2. #22
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    interesting post... JB... and your spot on... One of the issues is size.... of the beek giving advice and the one seeking..... one hive or 10? or 100? unfortunatly beekeepers here that post a lot of found a little niche that works for them, so they become "experts" and espose as much. Like sugar dusting and requeening. when the large scale reality is that that worked a cpl seasons for them and now its their religion......
    unfortunately we can't change that. To many Myths...
    Maybe we should start a beekeeping myth-busters!
    I got lucky when I started here, I learned real quick that some guys like Jim Lyon, and Ron Householder were the large guys who would help a little guy, and most of the rest were side liners and lecture circit guys...... and thank guys like David Burns for introducing me to Fred Rossman and Mike Gardner, and Nick Hardeman........

    Anyway... I agree with your sentiments... the only thing we can try is to paraphrase our OPINIONS when we advise.

  3. #23
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,113

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Glen,

    I did not start from his stock though he lived a few miles down the road and I cannot guarantee some genes didn't get in there at some point. Those bees were in that location for five years before I moved them here. I started with 20 packages from Koehnen and Sons in California, a couple hours south of my original location.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #24
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    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,341

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    unfortunatly beekeepers here that post a lot of found a little niche that works for them, so they become "experts" and espose as much. Like sugar dusting and requeening. when the large scale reality is that that worked a cpl seasons for them and now its their religion......
    You see regular requeening as a problem or some sort of snake oil? Have you seen Jim Lyon's method of dealing with varroa in his operation?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Fall treatments of thymol followed by an OA dribble post brood. Then requeen each spring. The test results tell the story and our bees have suffered no collapses since we have been following this program. Nice healthy super organisms.
    Are you familiar with the scope of Jim Lyon's operation?
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    2,925

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Although I hate the notion of requeening yearly it serves multiple purposes. You can always pull the older queen and make nucs I suppose. Most queens are judged on their brood patterns alone but the quality of her offspring and their longevity is typically never mentioned.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    4,113

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    He does have at least one of my queens, so maybe that helps, but I don't know.
    The unobtainium ones?
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  7. #27
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Don't think I didn't realize the irony!
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #28
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    My comment was not intened to argue Jim's or anyone success with it, I would never question Jims methods... It was more aimed at the thoughts that one particular queen (locals or carnoilns or russians etc) was the solution to all issues.
    requeening is part of bekkeping at all times, just a metaphor for those who are bent on proving one thing or another is "the answer"

    I should add that all the large scale guys belive in requeening, several are 2-3 times a year.

    My post was in support of the observation of so many "experts" with one track minds and arguments... nothing more. I don't intend to push one method or the other, packages or nucs, TF or not...
    Last edited by gmcharlie; 09-06-2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason: clarity

  9. #29
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    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike haney View Post
    Do you think you resemble the average novice beekeeper that just wants to keep bees?
    I don't
    No, probably not. My wife frequently tells me I'm "special," but I don't think she means it as a compliment.

    But that's not the point. All beginners get lumped into the "too ignorant to know that I'm right and these other guys are wrong" category, whether or not they actually are too ignorant to understand the issues.

    I fully agree with the title of this thread.

    Some beginners have arrived at the decision to not treat through research and deep thought. Telling them to treat first and later, when they've learned the basics, they can stop treating... that's very bad advice. By that time, you've already compromised your hive biota and you've contaminated the wax in the brood nest. You're in a worse position to stop treating than if you'd started out that way, or so it seems to me.

    I think the most realistic thing to say to beginners, whether they plan to treat or not, is "Your bees will probably die. Have a plan for dealing with that likelihood."

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    530

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by WBVC View Post
    Why do so many threads on this forum degenerate into treat vs don't treat?
    That seems to be the way of beesource, cannot discuss aspects of beekeeping without somebody jumping in and harping about treat vs non treat, and/or some mythical strain that seems to be everywhere else in the country, but not around 'here', wherever here is.

    But, allow me to respond to your post, using 'local reality'. A newbie starting in our part of the world, gets packages that originated in australia if they go the package route. By definition then, those bees are mite free when they arrive, have never been exposed to mites, and will have zero tolerance for them. To be honest, taking those bees and trying the 'no treatments' route, is just ludicrous. And, in our part of the world, importing some 'resistant' stock from south of the 49th, not going to happen. It may give somebody a warm fuzzy about being natural or some such thing to leave that hive untreated, but, in all honesty, taking a hive that started with an australian package, and doing NOTHING to combat mites, you have a much better chance of success if you instead spend that couple hundred bucks on LotoMax tickets.

    And now another bit of insight, again, real world data, I've collected myself. Before we moved up island, my wife and I were hosting the extractor for our local club, so, we met most of the newbies at extraction time, and talked to all of them before they extracted, and afterwards again. Interesting trends we discovered. Using last year as the example. Folks who started with packages in brand new equipment, harvested 15 pounds of honey average (per hive). Those who started with nucs, about half actually harvested 10 pounds, half harvested nothing. And those who started buying a full double deep, with a drawn super, harvested 70 pounds. We had multiple folks in each category, enough that the trend was startlingly clear. The other detail we noticed. Everybody who started with nucs, had experience catching swarms. Those who started with packages or full hives, didn't talk about swarms.

    If somebody asks me today about starting with bees, I'll turn around and ask them a question. Do you want to keep bees, or do you want to harvest honey ? If the answer is the former, start with a couple packages and new equipment. By the time you have it all put together, plan on spending 600 bucks (local prices, packages are much more expensive here than in the USA). But, if you want to get honey in the first year, buy a full double deep hive, with a drawn honey super from a beekeeper, there are always a few available for sale. They were available in our area for roughly 350 for the hive, add another 50 for a drawn super this spring. It's about the same population as 2 nucs, but, only one queen, and fully drawn frames. It's very realistic to expect a full / normal honey harvest from that hive, in the first year.

    Again, this advice probably goes against the vast majority of what's posted here on beesource, but, I've seen the results first hand, and there was no question on those results. Folks who started with a booming nuc, then put it in fresh gear with undrawn frames, ended up fighting swarmy hives because they were bringing in nectar faster than they built comb, exasperated by a newbie feeding to much during the flow, ending up with a plugged up broodnest. The bees that started from packages, didn't start out as quick, but, were able to draw comb as fast as they needed it. This jives with our own experience to some extent, it's all about how much drawn comb is available, and once you have the drawn comb, everything else becomes easier in terms of managing the bees. So, if the goal is honey in the first year, then the easy answer is, start with hive full of drawn comb. It looks more expensive, but, it's not really. You will get a crop in the first year, and that hive will let you pull off a nuc for expansion. You'll still end the first year with two hives, but, one of them will deliver a honey crop.

    That's my $0.02, and since the penny has gone the way of the dinosaur, it's worth exactly nothing when you round to the nickel....

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,454

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Grozzie2: Could you be a bit more specific on what these nucs were as far as what size, what time of year and how long the queen had been established in it?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #32
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    T

    And now another bit of insight, again, real world data, I've collected myself. Before we moved up island, my wife and I were hosting the extractor for our local club, so, we met most of the newbies at extraction time, and talked to all of them before they extracted, and afterwards again. Interesting trends we discovered. Using last year as the example. Folks who started with packages in brand new equipment, harvested 15 pounds of honey average (per hive). Those who started with nucs, about half actually harvested 10 pounds, half harvested nothing. And those who started buying a full double deep, with a drawn super, harvested 70 pounds. We had multiple folks in each category, enough that the trend was startlingly clear. The other detail we noticed. Everybody who started with nucs, had experience catching swarms. Those who started with packages or full hives, didn't talk about swarms.

    Agreed 100% tested it a dozen times myself, but several here on Beesource would call you a liar to your face....
    Excellent post..... with real world results...

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    I've always thought that 'Getting the queens that you want, rather than settling for the ones you get' IS a good beekeeping practice.

    If I want resistant Queens, then I think that I'm using a good beekeeping practice.

    Or, perhaps some of you would prefer that I settle for any old queen?

    I'm an informed consumer folks.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    owensboro,ky
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    2,240

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    That's a very well put response by GROZZIE2 and reflects some thought put into it
    Some of your observation mimics mine here in Ky but I don't know if its the habitat or the water but personally I've had only a couple of people come to me and say I wanna keep bees...
    Maybe I'm not as respected or as famous as you )
    Typically what requests I get are : I've got X # of packages on order ( or in my truck !) would you help me hive them ?
    Or " I got a package two months ago when can I rob honey" or " why aren't they expanding "
    I'd say 75 % don't read BeeSource or have any desire to.
    So for my location and my experience those folks should be advised to treat their hives.
    To say " your bees are gonna die.." Maybe it's just me but I can't see that working very well here.
    "Wine is a constant proof that God loves us and loves to see us happy" Ben Franklin

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
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    651

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    JRW. Same old stuff!!! True.
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
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    651

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Sol, why use some name only you know> Glen???
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    5,113

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Read the whole thread anonymous internet poster.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,341

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    > Read the whole thread ....

    Or if you don't want to read the entire thread, use the "Search Thread" tool just below the main thread title. If you did that, you would find a post on the bottom of page 1 of this thread (post #20) from Glen H:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?288860-Its-about-good-basic-beekeeping-practices-not-about-treating-or-not&highlight=glen
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  19. #39
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    That was probably a little indelicate of me. I apologize.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bolton, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    277

    Default Re: Its about good basic beekeeping practices, not about treating or not.

    Sol, I'm looking for some of your advice.
    What would you consider a new beekeeper, who uses OA vapour, and Essential oils in the occasional sugar syrup feed to be?
    A treater or a somewhere in-between treater IE: between the two ends of the treater or non-treater spectrum. So fare I have used essential oils (Winter Green, Lemon Grass, Tea Tree ) in my feed and was planning on using OA vapour when the need arises. Would you consider this to be a bad strategy to use prior to going totally treatment free?
    I consider myself to be an in-between Beekeeper so far.


    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

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