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  1. #1
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    Default Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    I'm looking for some advice.
    What would you consider a new beekeeper, who uses OA vapour, and Essential oils in the occasional sugar syrup feed to be?
    A treater or a somewhere in-between treater? IE: between the two ends of the treater or non-treater spectrum. So fare I have used essential oils (Winter Green, Lemon Grass, Tea Tree ) in my feed and was planning on using OA vapour when the need arises. Would you consider this to be a bad strategy to use prior to going totally treatment free?
    I consider myself to be an in-between Beekeeper so far, because I'm NOT planning on using any antibiotics
    Or commercial products to combat/prevent Nosema and such..... as Fumidil B..........

    As a newbee I'm finding myself worrying and fussing over every possible thing that could go wrong.

    IE: "I had better feed my bees, because maybe there wont be a Goldenrod flow".....



    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    Washington County, Maine
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    2,816

    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    I consider you a beekeeper. Labels aren't that important outside of BeeSource,
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,079

    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen H View Post
    What would you consider a new beekeeper, who uses OA vapour, and Essential oils in the occasional sugar syrup feed to be? A treater or a somewhere in-between treater? IE: between the two ends of the treater or non-treater spectrum.
    Labels aren't that useful. If you're trying, that's good, but you need to get there eventually. To get there eventually you have to quit treating eventually. So things you are doing that aren't leading to that, you ought not do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glen H View Post
    So fare I have used essential oils (Winter Green, Lemon Grass, Tea Tree ) in my feed
    I have not seen any evidence that these work. Can someone show me some objective evidence that these work?



    Quote Originally Posted by Glen H View Post
    Would you consider this to be a bad strategy to use prior to going totally treatment free?
    I'd consider feeding a poor strategy. Feeding should be done in emergency situations only. Winter feeding is best done with granulated sugar.



    Quote Originally Posted by Glen H View Post
    I'm NOT planning on using any antibiotics Or commercial products to combat/prevent Nosema and such..... as Fumidil B..........
    That's good. Anti-biotics throw off the balance of microbes in the hive, so do acids.



    Quote Originally Posted by Glen H View Post
    As a newbee I'm finding myself worrying and fussing over every possible thing that could go wrong.
    That's something you definitely ought to quit. Worrying doesn't help anything, and I'd argue it actually hurts. It will make you second guess yourself, inspect too often, do contradicting things, and shorten your life. You don't want that, do you?

    If you want to go treatment free, I will tell you this: You need more hives. You should focus on learning and practicing methods of increase and catching swarms. Also, since you are in Canada, your bees may have come from Australia. In that case you're gonna have a real rough time. Australia doesn't have mites, therefore virtually no chance of mite resistance. Focus on catching swarms and learning what is necessary for hives to survive the winter in your area, amount of stores, location, etc.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #4
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    Jun 2010
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    Stillwell, KS
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    645

    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Glen,

    Nothing matters except that your bees are ready for winter, which is only about a month off for you.

    Feed them if they are light, the season is getting short. Wind break, insulated cover with a vent hole, and wrap.

    If they are short Mountain Camp or candy board them for the winter.

    Find a local mentor, all beekeeping is local.



    Don

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,416

    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    you are a 'beekeeper'.

    the compulsion to identify with one camp or the other is a peculiarity of this forum, brought on in part by the establishment of the 'unique forum rules' attached to the tf subforum, which apparently go beyond laying down the ground work for an informed discussion and have effectively become the standard by which one is to be 'defined'.

    it sounds to me glen like you are a rational and conscientious individual in the beginning stages of learning how to keep bees alive and productive in a managed setting. good for you!

    i am for the most part a self-thinking nonconformist (squarepeg) and i have rejected the arbitrary either/or distinction that some have bought into here. the most useful thing that has come about by having this dividing line is that it makes for plentiful forum fodder, keeping the site active, and giving those who enjoy or need a chance to vent.

    if you are looking for advice on how to label yourself, my advice would be don't worry about it.

    if you are looking for advice on how to keep your bees alive using the least invasive methods possible, there are plenty of folks of like mind that can help you in that regard.

    in the end the decisions are yours to make, and there are trade-offs and compromises involved. beekeeping is one big experiment, and you will have to learn by trial and error. for me, this is what i enjoy most about it.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post










    That's something you definitely ought to quit. Worrying doesn't help anything, and I'd argue it actually hurts. It will make you second guess yourself, inspect too often, do contradicting things, and shorten your life. You don't want that, do you?

    You are correct on this one, worrying is not good for me or the bees.

    Also, since you are in Canada, your bees may have come from Australia. In that case you're gonna have a real rough time. Australia doesn't have mites, therefore virtually no chance of mite resistance. Focus on catching swarms and learning what is necessary for hives to survive the winter in your area, amount of stores, location, etc.

    Yes the two 9 frame deep nucs I got in June were from ozzy queens. One hive swarmed in July, a month to the day I got them. I caught the swarm now I have three hives. The hive that did not swarm The Queen went bye bye in late July. I re-queened the hive with a local Ontario Queen from Tibor Szabo Szabo Queens http://www.honeybees.ca

    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    you are a 'beekeeper'.


    it sounds to me glen like you are a rational and conscientious individual in the beginning stages of learning how to keep bees alive and productive in a managed setting. good for you!
    Thanks Squarepeg,

    I'm the type that likes to read and learn view point from both sides of the story and then decide for myself, what I think will be the right approach for me. That may include taking a little bit knowledge from here a bit from there and add it all up to hopefully have something that fits my outlook. Learning for me is like an all you can eat buffet. You get to look at all that there is to offer and then decide what you want to pick and choose from it. That's what I like about this forum, lots of view point and ideas. I'm not much of a follower of any one camp thou.

    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  8. #8
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Only saying this because you mentioned it - if you do decide that you need to treat for mites oxalic acid is effective, and relatively low impact compared to almost anything else.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    Only saying this because you mentioned it - if you do decide that you need to treat for mites oxalic acid is effective, and relatively low impact compared to almost anything else.
    So far no mites. Been doing drone cell culling checks and monitor board checks during the summer. Will be checking again soon, will try a powdered sugar roll also this time. I know it's inevitable that I will get them. But I guess being new hives I got a break for now.
    At lease for now also where I am SHB are really rare and just in a few locations not to near me.

    Any places that have been found to have them and the gov knows about it they have banned that Beekeeper from moving or selling bees or queens. Apparently an inspector found one dead SHB in a breeders yard and shut him down for the year, he was not allowed to sell queens or nucs aparently.

    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    It sounds like you're what used to be called "Organic" before the government stuck it's nose in the legal marketing use of the word.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    My practices may lean towards Organic, but I sure can't claim any of the honey the bees make as being Organic, who knows where they are collecting their nectar and pollen from.
    I sure would like to know thou! Need some mini GPS units for them.

    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  12. #12
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    Wink Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen H View Post
    My practices may lean towards Organic, but I sure can't claim any of the honey the bees make as being Organic, who knows where they are collecting their nectar and pollen from.
    I sure would like to know thou! Need some mini GPS units for them.

    Glen
    You asked about your beekeeping practices,
    I didn't comment on your honey.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Hi Glen I checked the web site of Tibor Szabo Szabo & he claims a good degree of mite resistance in his bees so let's hope that proves true for you.

    Solomon was correct about the Ozzy bees I asked on the commercial forum about them a while ago & the consensus was that the Ozzy bees do not last the onslaught of varroa much past the end of the season.

    So if you wish to treat, oxalic fumigation is a good one for you because it leaves no permanent residue in the hive. It does not kill mites in brood so is best done early winter before the bees have formed a solid cluster but after there is no brood. That way you will get a good mite kill. It does not suppress brood raising the following spring in the same way as an oxalic dribble, provided there is not too much unsealed honey in the hive at the time. Which in early winter there probably wouldn't be. You can repeat the treatment several times if you wish.

    For a hard winter like in Canada the bees need sufficient stores. There is nothing wrong with sugar long as you use white sugar not unrefined (brown). It has been said that sugar is not as nutritious for bees as honey, but that matters not cos bees get almost all their nutrition from pollen, the honey or sugar is just the carbohydrates for them. You'll also hear it said sugar is poison, it isn't. Best way to feed it is before winter starts mixed as thick as you can get it using hot water. Add a cupful of vinegar to each 4 gallons, then feed to the hive in a custom built feeder, with plenty of straw in it for the bees to climb on so they won't drown. Lots of straw, a common beginner mistake is to not use enough & bees drown. feeding in that way means the bees can store it in their combs as they would honey, and have it distributed in the hive the way they want it.

    Your bees only need three things to get through winter in good shape. They are the bees have to be healthy, properly housed, and enough feed.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Am I a middle of the road treater? or a treater?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Hi Glen I checked the web site of Tibor Szabo Szabo & he claims a good degree of mite resistance in his bees so let's hope that proves true for you.

    The plan at this point will be to re-queen the two other hive next year late spring with Tibor's Queens. Then I'm hoping to get started at making my own queens and to start using my two nuc hives I made. I think having my own Queens going forward and having several on hand is the way to go. Tibor and his crew do about 5000 Queens a year he has been on at leased one documentary and in a Canadian TV program called The Nature Of Things. I was lucky enough to go out with one of his guys, to one of their yards and watch as he picked my Queen out.

    Solomon was correct about the Ozzy bees I asked on the commercial forum about them a while ago & the consensus was that the Ozzy bees do not last the onslaught of varroa much past the end of the season.

    What the person I purchased the two 9 frames nucs does is he gives you the Queen that was from the year before, which has been over wintered in
    Canada and he puts the new Ozzy Queen in his hive, I don't know, there is some good and bad with that approach I guess?!?!?.


    So if you wish to treat, oxalic fumigation is a good one for you because it leaves no permanent residue in the hive. It does not kill mites in brood so is best done early winter before the bees have formed a solid cluster but after there is no brood. That way you will get a good mite kill. It does not suppress brood raising the following spring in the same way as an oxalic dribble, provided there is not too much unsealed honey in the hive at the time. Which in early winter there probably wouldn't be. You can repeat the treatment several times if you wish.

    OK sound good



    For a hard winter like in Canada the bees need sufficient stores. There is nothing wrong with sugar long as you use white sugar not unrefined (brown). It has been said that sugar is not as nutritious for bees as honey, but that matters not cos bees get almost all their nutrition from pollen, the honey or sugar is just the carbohydrates for them. You'll also hear it said sugar is poison, it isn't. Best way to feed it is before winter starts mixed as thick as you can get it using hot water. Add a cupful of vinegar to each 4 gallons, then feed to the hive in a custom built feeder, with plenty of straw in it for the bees to climb on so they won't drown. Lots of straw, a common beginner mistake is to not use enough & bees drown. feeding in that way means the bees can store it in their combs as they would honey, and have it distributed in the hive the way they want it.

    Your bees only need three things to get through winter in good shape. They are the bees have to be healthy, properly housed, and enough feed
    Where I live it's actually not to bad of a winter I'm actually more south than some of the states I'm in Zone 5B close to the great lakes and get some of the warmth off of the lakes. I use The Fat Bee Mans no drown top feeder. My goal is to NOT have to feed at all if possible, believing honey is better for them. For me as purely a hobbies, the bees come first, me second. If there is more honey then they can use I'll take some. If not they get to keep it all. Being a Newbee I'm over reacting with my hives and feeding the weaker one that was a swarm capture, yet between the three hive there is probably enough honey to go around. After the Goldenrod flow is over I'll have a better idea and will even out the stores more so that each hive has enough to get through the winter .

    Thanks!
    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

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