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  1. #21

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Same here.

    Have a look at: http://up.picr.de/12361099an.pdf

    Chemicals plus nature...

  2. #22
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I Do toally disagree with all the "Sub Lethal effects" garbage being touted.... its junk science. I gota say something so I don't look foolish type of line.
    I take in sub lethal dosages of 1000's of things a day... Even water in excess can lead to lethargy and dsyentary. While the LD 50 may not be a great number, "sub lethal" dosage info is total garbage that tells us nothing.
    We may need a different value, but lets not rely on a guess.
    I'm not sure what any of that means. Are you not interested in the effects of things/dosages that have effects other than mortality?

    The study the Bernhard links to is an interesting one...much better than the Pettis study that claimed the same thing (the main difference being that in this study they counted the bees that died, in the Pettis study, dead bees became discarded data).

    The biggest problem I have with a study like this is that in the test the bees are deprived of a colony...none of the "bee things" that bees do to keep healthy (eat live cultures of beebread, assimilate the microbial culture of the colony, fly out of doors to deficate, interacting with comb, brood, etc) are available to these bees in a cage.

    A human would succumb to many maladies if kept in solitary confinement with no plumbing and no bathing facilitities.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  3. #23
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Same here.
    Have a look at: http://up.picr.de/12361099an.pdf
    Chemicals plus nature...
    Although this is a complex issue, I do have a problem with criticizing what a product does if it is misused to the point where the law is being broken.

    Imagine if bees were "misused"? Would beekeeping be legal in urban areas if frames of brood (and adhering bees, of course) were being dropped on pedestrians from rooftops by gangs? ...if a group of beekeepers decides to encourage swarming in the city (and is successful)?

    Of course this is interesting data (to me...I know to you it represents your own loss of bees/time/money/heart)...and thank you for sharing it. To me, however, this represents problems with what farmers in your area are doing than it does problems with specific pesticides....is there a spray they can spray on an open bloom that doesn't hurt bees and is still effective against the target organisms? If not, the problem is not thiacloprid.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  4. #24
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Deknow, My point is that the "sub lethal line" is totaly garbage. anything above a 0 could be called that. The LD 50 may not be the best but it is at the moment the standard. If we can scientifically show a better standard great. If we can show decrease mobility at some level fine...... but we have been trowing the term "subleathal dose" around like it means something. it means nothing. worse than nothing.
    Mayor Bloomberg says that more than 16 OZ of pop at a time is dangerous and should be regulated.
    If we can show or demonstrate a new number cool.... at the moment we have one. lets stick to it, or correct it. not just make stuff up.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Bernard: Would it be correct to assume that because systemic neonic seed coatings aren't legal there in Germany, that farmers are instead controlling pests with various pesticide sprays including Neonic formulations?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  6. #26

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    @Jim: Neonic seed coatings are not forbidden nor banned in Germany. Just for certain crops like corn. In fact: corn. Only. For the next season 2014 it still is in the oilseed rape seed. It pauses from 2015 to 2015 in oilseed rape. It is allowed as a seed coating in sugar beets, asparagus, all sorts of grains....

    @Charlie: The problem with sublethal dosages is the damage, that can't be repaired by the body. Even if the damage is very very tiny, not noticeable at first, it sums up over the time until the collapse. It certainly is important to discover when it comes to suppression of the immune system.

    @deknow: The stuff got a permission/approval under certain and defined conditions. Which are not defined by practice but theoretically. As experience shows it is simply is not possible to follow the laws. Thiacloprid is approved as a spray in open bloom canola, but it says: spray in the late evening right before sunset. No windy conditions.

    It is a joke. A farmer cannot spray only at night with all the work he's got to do. Also it is windy here all year round where I live.

    The box says: B4 - which is a category that says it is bee-friendly (completely not dangerous to bees). What do you expect a farmer to think if he reads this? He of course sprays even if he notices bees in the open flowers. "It is B4 - no worries." The thing is, that the stuff is bee friendly if applied under theoretically circumstances. Even clothianidin and other systemics are labeled B4 or B3...because it is layed into the ground...well, the systemic action of the stuff transports it right up into the blossom, which is not of concern for the gov.

    There are many beekeepers in Germany that get their bees, honey, wax and pollen tested in
    labs and the same or similiar results are obtained all over Germany. It is full of pesticides, stuff that doesn't belong to a natural product as honey is. It is in our drinking water, too, right from the tap!

    It does what it is suppose to do to social insects: disoriented&diseased, chemicals+nature finishing the job

  7. #27
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    @deknow: The stuff got a permission/approval under certain and defined conditions.
    I'm not equipped to discuss this further without knowing what "permission/approval" was given under what "certain and defined conditions".
    It is a simple (and important) question as to whether the application that harmed your bees was done according to the law. The discussion (and solution) is very different depending on the answer.

    Which are not defined by practice but theoretically. As experience shows it is simply is not possible to follow the laws.
    Any regulation that requires enforcement is one that requires something that isn't currently practiced (at least by those that need to be enforced). Any regulation that requires anyone to change anything is 'defined theoretically'.
    To cite instances of the law not being followed is not the same thing as demonstrating that it is impossible to follow the law.
    It has been many years since I was in Germany, but people I know who were running businesses had much more regulation from the govt than we have here....the question is, is the problem in regulation, or in enforcement?

    Thiacloprid is approved as a spray in open bloom canola, but it says: spray in the late evening right before sunset. No windy conditions.
    Is that the sum total of the requirements? If we are going to discuss the legal requirements for something to be used in Germany, it would be helpful to know what all the requirements are.

    It is a joke. A farmer cannot spray only at night with all the work he's got to do. Also it is windy here all year round where I live.
    I'm sure there are more difficult regulations that farmers in Germany follow than to spray at night.

    If it is windy year round and the farmers won't spray at night, is there anything effective that can be used by the farmers that won't kill your bees and taint your product? Isn't this the real issue?

    The box says: B4 -...
    Can you cite what this means specifically?

    Even clothianidin and other systemics are labeled B4 or B3...because it is layed into the ground...well, the systemic action of the stuff transports it right up into the blossom, which is not of concern for the gov.
    Data like the data you have presented from such applications are generally lacking. One would think that if they were significant, someone would have been reporting it. ...and please, let's not talk about corn guttation from plants confined to small pots.

    There are many beekeepers in Germany that get their bees, honey, wax and pollen tested in
    labs and the same or similiar results are obtained all over Germany. It is full of pesticides, stuff that doesn't belong to a natural product as honey is. It is in our drinking water, too, right from the tap!
    "Full of pesticides" lacks significance. What levels of what pesticides? Compared to what?

    I'm not trying to be confrontational Bernhard, I know you to be thoughtful and intelligent. I'm looking for better data.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  8. #28
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    It might be helpful to take a base-line of "normal mortality" over the course of the year for various populations of hives, then do an LD-10, LD-20, LD-30,...up to LD-100 over different dosage levels, recording mortality and over-winter mortality/survival rates of all the colonies in the study.

    The study would need to be repeated over several years and several locations to show the effect of various wintering conditions in different areas.

    Please forgive the following: LD-50 means the Lethal Dose at which 50% of the population dies. I post this just in case anyone else doesn't know it. I use LD-10 to mean a Lethal Dose at which 10 % of a population dies, LD-20 to mean a Lethal Dose at which 20% dies, etc.

    I suggest this not for sadistic enjoyment, but for a better understanding of each pesticide, fungicide, or other chemical to which we expose bees. Anyone interested in such a study and willing to help, please make up a few extra colonies and queens, earmarking them for scienctific "sacrifice". We just might get some respect in fighting off this insane, rampant over-use of these chemicals with accurate scientific work published by reputable authority.

    Which universities are leading the study efforts? I know Ohio State University, North Carolina State U., Florida State U., Washington State U., and UC Davis all have apiculture programs...who else?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Its an interesting thought to have different levels. I am not opposed. the problem we have now is that there are a lot of what I would refer to as wild claims about sub lethal doses. While there may be some or even a lot of merit to them, we have no ruler what so ever to gauge.

    The difficulty now is there are a lot of claims about disorientation at low levels. While I would agree that any of that is bad as it makes it impossible to grow a hive, there is absolutely no way to measure or quantify it. every hive has some bees that "look lost" or mill about or do not return..... To say its from _______ and its a problem is a whole other world of claims.

  10. #30

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    LD-50 means the Lethal Dose at which 50% of the population dies.
    It is important to know, that LD50 means 50 % in 24 hours.

    There are other toxicity measures like LD50 48h and LC50 where c stands for chronic. (there are others like subchronic, subacute...)

    Speaking of LD50 is the acute toxicity within 24 hours.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    gmcharlie-

    The claim of of disorientation at lower doses has some merit. An Italian student visiting at the University of California at San Diego reported that sub-lethal doses of imidacloprid caused bees to fly 1.7x farther while under the influence. His experiment had a bee treadmill, a bee super-glued to a wire on a central hinge pin (like a compass needle) with a "stadium" of paper striped so that the bee knew he was making progress forward as he flew. The unexposed bees in the control group flew a certain distance, the exposed group flew 1.7 times farther. It looked kind of hilarious watching a bee, glued to a wire tether, fly around and around those stripes, but it go the point across.

    Bernard -
    Thank you! Good clarification like that keeps us all on the same page. It helps us to realize that small doses can be fatal to a colony that uses behaviors like the social insects' trademark of labor division in caring for the young vs. foraging, when that colony has multiple stressors and is already close to the brink of destruction. Mites, viruses, nosema apis, nosema ceranae, and other stresses all reduce a colony's chances of survival over a winter. Loss of efficiency at foraging can easily push them over the edge. Trace exposure to fungicides have proven lethal on cold winters following late summer/autumn with low pollen stores. It can get a bit complex, but remember the house that Jack buildt? Sometimes that's what we're dealing with.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    An LD50 may not be a good measurement to go by. A variation of the PEL (Permissible Exposure Limit) would be better. I bet it would be far different for such a small creature as compared to a larger sized human, but I am no chemist. When I go out in my civilian job and enforce workplace safety, we do not enforce the LD50, we enforce much higher standards. The LD50 is self defeating. It assumes automatic contamination to begin with. It would be better to develop a PEL type limit for honeybees.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Paul -
    That is right on the money - the whole point seems to be to determine what a permissible exposure limit is for the bees. The problem here being that these poisons are meant to kill insects like bees, so the number ZERO comes to mind, but it would not kill the other targeted insects such as the Asian Citrus Psilid. We need a "magic bullet" strategy here that renders target pests harmless and does not harm pollinator insects, a tough order to fill.

  14. #34

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Bees in the canola field. Same procedure as last year.




    Bees in canola get a yellow mark on their head:






    Hoverflies and lots of other insects in the canola, too.

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