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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default interesting turn of events

    the Sept Bee culture on page 7 has a letter titled KILL BUGS GET FREE SEEDS written by Graham White, UK
    now I realize that there are more than one Graham White in the UK, but the one that posted here previously under the name Borderbeeman had definite ideas on ccd and the relationship to neonic's. I don't have access to the online version but found the first two paragraphs interesting.

    There is alot of misinformation and lack of understanding being circulated about the effects of neonic insecticides including imidacloprid in relation to bee health.

    Only one of OUR products, provado lawn grub killer, contains imidacloprid. the entire range of provado ultimate bug killer insecticide conatins thiacloprid which has a good bee profile.

    any bets its the same person?
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,649

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    what I wonder is what is actually motivating him....

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Taylor County, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    669

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    I picked up the latest issue of Bee Culture in Tractor Supply. I wasn't planning to buy it, but what I gained by skimming was pretty disappointing. Conclusions looking for science, that kind of thing. Disappointing.

    I want to read about bees.
    Try it. What could happen?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    1,645

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    I went to the Bayer site to see if they had any way to get an employee list but I couldn't find any
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  5. #5

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    ...thiacloprid which has a good bee profile.
    What does that mean? Thiacloprid is a neonic. This year it killed all of my flying bees in one day. My bees got sprayed with thiacloprid in a canola field. I had it tested in two seperate and independant laboratories.

    I don't trust any labels anymore. For a reason: bad experience.

    I know there is a lot of crap written on the effects of neonics on bees - on either side of the groups pro&con neonics. Some get hysteric, some want to make their profit. In between lies the truth.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Ojai, California
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    740

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    ..... In between lies the truth.
    interesting verb there...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    4,991

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Mr White and I share a first name, so I have an interest in his activities.

    While he hasn't graced Beesource with his posts recently, he seems to have been busy. From a document submitted in testimony before a committee of the (Great Britain) UK Parliament in March 2013:

    A Pesticide ‘Free for All’
    Since the American EPA has abandoned any pretence of enforcing pesticide label regulations, farmers can apply insecticides virtually anytime on a ‘perceived need’ basis: 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year;.
    ...
    It is hard to judge whether the bees are poisoned more, by the summer neonicotinoids which affect them in the Midwest, or if they are finally pushed over the edge in the winter, by having to eat pesticide-contaminated stores. Either way, for months on end, these bees are exposed to a repeated drip-feed of many different pesticides.
    ...
    Thus, repeated pesticide-shocks throughout the growing season trigger the collapse of brood rearing in late summer. As a result, the colony does not produce enough young worker bees and, in desperation, worn-out worker bees are retained in the hive beyond their normal residency. To the untrained eye, the colony still looks well-populated and has plenty of honey and bee-bread for the winter. But in reality, this colony of geriatric bees is doomed to collapse in mid-winter.
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...ev/668/m44.htm
    Its a long document, and the snippets above are just random paragraphs. Click the link to read it in its entirety.


    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    2,439

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    I think if your bees actually get sprayed it's a done deal. It's the systemic effects people are talking about, after application.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,437

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    < In between lies the truth.[/QUOTE]

    "In between lies, the truth." "In between, lies the truth."

    "In between [lays] the truth."

    Grammar and punctuation matters.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,122

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Wasn't Borderbeeman claiming much CCD from the neonics in Oil Seed Rape (Canola)?

    I was just in the UK for a couple weeks. OSR everywhere. I was told that 25% of tillable land was in OSR, they're making 200+lb. of honey per colony, and no CCD.

  11. #11

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    ...they're making 200+lb. of honey per colony, and no CCD.
    That is what they say. You should see it for yourself when the canola is in blossom. You would see the damage that is done to the bees, others do not. They simply don't see it.

    My canola honey was tested in a lab and a neonic was found in the honey. Also the pollen was tested in two separate and certified laboratories in two different countries and high amounts of neonics has been found in the pollen, too. Result: all foragers died on one day. Some queens failed later, one immediately. Nosema showed up on this hives.

    Another beekeeper who had bees close to the canola field, too, noticed "nothing" except that the honey harvest was "a little lower" as it should be. He had trouble with colonies collapsing in some winters, too, not knowing where it comes from. I fear a lot of beekeepers do not know what to look for. Losses are hidden. Inofficial losses are 30-50 % each year. Officially 10-30 %. Losses are hidden from other beekeepers and replaced secretely with packages from Italy, France and Spain and overseas.

    We have had 2.5 million bee colonies in 1900 in Germany and now dropped down to 500 k hives. That really says it all.

    Besides my bad grammar as a non-native English speaker (apologies for the confusion), what I was trying to point out, that awareness is not a bad thing and there is some truth in that story.

    I for myself decided not to sell honey with pesticides in it to families and kids and so, and dumped the whole lot this year after it was positively tested. Which is a lot of money for me. But I do sleep better, because I did the right thing.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Can't say that would happen in the US. That honey would be sold.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,649

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post

    We have had 2.5 million bee colonies in 1900 in Germany and now dropped down to 500 k hives. That really says it all.
    Not an Accurate statement at all. Hive numbers are based a lot more on social economic factors that Canola. The pesticides your railing didn't exist in 1980... did you have 2.5 million then???

    I can't/ wont comment on the Neonics in Rapeseed...... not my area, but don't use non related stuff to fluff up your position. Thats part of the problem on both sides of the Isle...

  14. #14
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    > The pesticides your railing didn't exist in 1980...

    But did those pesticides exist in 1900?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    We have had 2.5 million bee colonies in 1900 in Germany ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    I would have to look it up, but in Oct. or Nov. ABJ Peter Borst reported that colony counts are on the rise. If I recall correctly.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  16. #16

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    The reason I choose 1900 for comparison is, because that was the point where farmers in Germany gave up on mixed agriculture. Means before 1900 farmers grew cows, pigs, grains and veggies on one farm. Live stock and plant crops were depending on each other those days. Around 1900 that changed: agriculture splitted into farmers and ranchers. (Like in the bible...)

    The old way to farm with mixed agriculture was good for the land and wildlife. And for bees.

    After the First and Second World War bee hives were taken away as reparation. To France for example. The strain of dark bees which originated in the county where I live, can nowadaysbe found in Belgium. So hive numbers dropped again after the wars. Even despite beekeepers trying to split the hives and keep up the numbers.

    1900 - 2.605.350 bee hives
    1913 - 2.311.277
    1921 - 1.930.382
    1922 - 1.831.005
    1991 - 1.214.702
    1999 - 898.996
    2008 - 621.823
    2009 - 613.962
    2010 - 619.197
    2011 - 631.601
    2012 - 622.109

    Neonics have been in use since 1999 in Germany, but not very widespread. The hive numbers in 2012 I don't believe in, because I know that quite some beekeepers report no loss or a smaller loss - and buy package bees from overseas to replace the losses. I know many beekeepers in Germany and losses of 30 % each year is quite common. In Germany mostly old men do keep bees. In ten years about 60-70% of beekeepers will have died. Just because of the age. If that happens without replacement by new beekeepers, the numbers will again drop dramatically.

    Neonics definitely make it hard to keep numbers up where I live. New beekeepers give up after some years because it is too much effort just to keep them bees alive. I don't say it's neonics alone but it doesn't help either, when the immune system of the bees is suppressed. I see it like shown here:
    http://www.immenfreunde.de/forum/dow...ile.php?id=134

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Berhard, what you are reporting is the kind of data that seems impossible to come by. Would you mind being a bit more specific?
    What kind of application (spray, seed treatment)?
    When were samples taken relative to the application?
    What were the actual lab results?

    Thanks Berhard,

    Deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  18. #18

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Spray. Pollen samples collected two days later in May. Honey sampled from bottled honey in Octobre.

    Laboratory results:
    0.076 mg Thiacloprid (a neonic) per kilogramm pollen
    0.028 Milligramm [mg] = 28 Mikrogramm [g] Thiacloprid per kilogramm honey

    That is 28 ppb. (1 ppb*= 1 g/kg)

    The LD50-value, the dosis that kills 50 % of the bees in 24 hours, is 17 g/bee. (So one bee in my case has to eat 600 Gramm of honey to reach the LD50.)

    But as this study finds: "We demonstrate, however, that a daily exposure 1/100th concentration of the LD50 significantly affects the mortality rate of N. ceranae-infected honeybees."
    from: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0021550

    600 Gramm of honey contain 17 g Thiacloprid divided through 100 = 6 Gramm honey are enough to trigger sublethal effects of some sorts, which most likely is the suppression of the immune system. Diseased and disoriented, that sounds too familiar to me.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Thanks Bernhard.

    In the US, spraying an open bloom with bees present with an insecticide would be against label instructions, and therefore illegal. Is it the same in Germany?

    Of course enforcement is always a problem.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,649

    Default Re: interesting turn of events

    Interesting data Bernhard... the largest decline as I suspected was between 1900 and 1991. social economics being a huge issue. Your info on your levels is great. I am still waiting on lab results here. (they were promised in NOV).

    I Do totally disagree with all the "Sub Lethal effects" garbage being touted.... its junk science.
    "I gota say something so I don't look foolish type of line."

    I take in sub lethal dosages of 1000's of things a day... Even water in excess can lead to lethargy and dsyentary. While the LD 50 may not be a great number, "sub lethal" dosage info is total garbage that tells us nothing.
    We may need a different value, but lets not rely on a guess.
    the article on N Cerena infected bees to me tells me that we should work harder to get rid of it. thats easier then eliminating imiclorpids


    Curious, I didn't know you guys were buying packages over there also? how large is the industry on that side of the pond?

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