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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    To say hives were treated for varroa mites but died of varroa mites anyway means the treatment wasn't done effectively.

    If it was done effectively the hives would not have died from varroa mites.

    Only exception being if the hives are so far gone by the time the beekeeper notices and treats (all brood dead, adult bees to sick to start again) then even when the mites are removed the hive cannot recover & dies anyway.

    If a person suspects their treatment was not effective they can test the hives, and if there are still mites, figure out where they went wrong in the way they treated and fix it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    I don't doubt at all that Mr. Bush's bees would have died after a 2001 Apistan treatment. By that time it was largely ineffective and the primary reason the EPA granted approval for Check Mite in 2000. It worked great for about 2 years but by the third year was about as effective as fgmo that is unless you were trying to kill queen cells.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    No True Scotsman, moving the bar, ad hominem, etc. etc. etc.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    No True Scotsman, moving the bar, ad hominem, etc. etc. etc.
    Claiming those for the recent comments is a stretch at best. Perhaps confirmation bias is causing you to perceive logically fallacious attacks against yourself or your belief system in a conversation which actually is not about you.

    I don't see any attacks against M. Bush or his philosophy either. He says that one reason he doesn't believe in treating is that mites develop a tolerance and the treatments become ineffective - Jim's comment was a straight forward confirmation of that position. Oldtimer's comment is just factually true. You seem to be largely tilting at windmills.

    You and Michael Bush have very similar messages, but he seems to put little or no energy into stamping out heresies.
    Last edited by David LaFerney; 09-04-2013 at 03:38 AM.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    If a treatment doesn't work, it must be the beekeeper's fault.

    Realism.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    I suppose it wouldn't be helpful to point out that beekeepers unintentionally kill their own colonies all the time when using treatments. The treatment either doesn't 'cure' the problem, or it can cause the problem.

    I haven't seen much reporting on the actual stats for that though.

    Regardless, I think that I'm being realistic too.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    No True Scotsman, moving the bar, ad hominem, etc. etc. etc.
    Ahhhh....an attempt to appear sophisticated.....spoken like a true 21st century Ed Lillywhite Norton (which shows just how sophisticated I am )
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Interesting article Jim.

    We are beginning to get fluvenate resistance in mites here now, although it's rare still, but getting more each year. And to the other pyrethroid strip available also.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    If a treatment doesn't work, it must be the beekeeper's fault.

    Realism.
    If a treatment doesn't work then it isn't effective. To repeat - Michael Bush agrees that one reason not to treat is that mites acquire resistance which renders the treatment ineffective. If the beekeeper applies a treatment that is ineffective then yes that is the beekeepers fault - even if the beekeeper did not know that it was ineffective. That is not an attack - when he used Apistan he was doing exactly what many of us do - trying whatever we think will keep our bees alive. By that time Apistan was ineffective and "all" of his bees died despite treatment. Later (apparently with new stocks) he used Oxalic acid and FGMO on "some" of them, and all of his bees did not die. Then he began treatment free. His story. Not an ad hominem attack. And although we aren't talking about Scottsmen, Michael Bush is clearly a true beekeeper. Although at that time he was clearly not a true treatment free beekeeper.

    Although, apparently he was a treatment free beekeeper for years before varroa came along at which time his (apparent) unintentional "Bond" method resulted in all of his bees dying. Which is what most of us would like to avoid.

    Again you seem to be teasing criticism out of a discussion where none is (obviously) intended. If everyone agreed it wouldn't be much of a discussion would it? Disagreement is not the same as attacking.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    >To say hives were treated for varroa mites but died of varroa mites anyway means the treatment wasn't done effectively.

    It was done precisely according to the directions on the package which was sold to me by a reputable beekeeping supply house and was (despite the Varroa having built a tolerance to it) the accepted and promoted treatment "du jour". Not it was not effective.

    >If it was done effectively the hives would not have died from varroa mites.

    The treatment was done exactly according to the manufacturers direction. Unfortunately at that point Apistan was straight up "snake oil" being perpetrated on us by Bayer, the USDA and the agricultural college researchers.

    >Only exception being if the hives are so far gone by the time the beekeeper notices and treats (all brood dead, adult bees to sick to start again) then even when the mites are removed the hive cannot recover & dies anyway.

    It was done at the recommended time.

    >If a person suspects their treatment was not effective they can test the hives, and if there are still mites, figure out where they went wrong in the way they treated and fix it.

    Unfortunately at the time I was just doing what I was told should be done for Varroa, out of desperation at having lost my hives to Varroa. I followed application directions religiously. I wish I knew then what I know now... Now, of course, if I were to fall for the treatment "snake oil" I would have at least tested to see that it did not work.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >To say hives were treated for varroa mites but died of varroa mites anyway means the treatment wasn't done effectively.

    It was done precisely according to the directions on the package which was sold to me by a reputable beekeeping supply house and was (despite the Varroa having built a tolerance to it) the accepted and promoted treatment "du jour". Not it was not effective.

    >If it was done effectively the hives would not have died from varroa mites.

    The treatment was done exactly according to the manufacturers direction. Unfortunately at that point Apistan was straight up "snake oil" being perpetrated on us by Bayer, the USDA and the agricultural college researchers.

    >Only exception being if the hives are so far gone by the time the beekeeper notices and treats (all brood dead, adult bees to sick to start again) then even when the mites are removed the hive cannot recover & dies anyway.

    It was done at the recommended time.

    >If a person suspects their treatment was not effective they can test the hives, and if there are still mites, figure out where they went wrong in the way they treated and fix it.

    Unfortunately at the time I was just doing what I was told should be done for Varroa, out of desperation at having lost my hives to Varroa. I followed application directions religiously. I wish I knew then what I know now... Now, of course, if I were to fall for the treatment "snake oil" I would have at least tested to see that it did not work.
    Aside from the fact that it is manufactured by Bayer, I agree with pretty much everything you say. Yes, you did use a treatment that was largely ineffective at the time you used it and no it undoubtedly did not work. even more ridiculous is it is still being marketed. My pointing this out was hardly an attack on you as you and your bees were the victim. The point of my post was that in 2001 the heyday of Apistan had pretty much come to an end in the US and I think that is pretty much beyond dispute. I would be interested in hearing more about whether he feels his use of oxalic acid was helpful or harmful to his bees.
    Last edited by jim lyon; 09-04-2013 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Clarity
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  13. #53

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Thirty hives per yard….seven yards, each in a different state….a total of over 200 hives started in 2009 and left untreated.

    http://www.extension.org/pages/63773...s#.UicQpNKsiSo

    This carryover effect could not be detected in 2010/2011 since all apiaries setup in 2009, except FL, experienced 100% loss.

    This is treatment free reality.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Unfortunately at the time I was just doing what I was told should be done for Varroa, out of desperation at having lost my hives to Varroa. I followed application directions religiously. I wish I knew then what I know now... Now, of course, if I were to fall for the treatment "snake oil" I would have at least tested to see that it did not work.
    Not unusual at all Mike. I frequently come across hives in the final throws of death by mites, but when I point this out to the owner they say, can't be I just treated.

    Well whether they did or not, it wasn't effective, for one of many possible reasons. I usually just point them in to a way that will work for them, whether they do it is over to them.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Thirty hives per yard….seven yards, each in a different state….a total of over 200 hives started in 2009 and left untreated.

    http://www.extension.org/pages/63773...s#.UicQpNKsiSo

    This carryover effect could not be detected in 2010/2011 since all apiaries setup in 2009, except FL, experienced 100% loss.

    This is treatment free reality.
    You left out this part:

    In the spring of 2009 seven stationary apiaries consisting of ca. 30 colonies per site were initiated from 3- lb packages obtained from various commercial honey bee producers across the southern and western U.S.
    Most treatment free proponents will tell you that if you start out with commercial Southern packages, you will not succeed.

    After reading that study (not for the first time) I would have to say that it seems a fairly perfect example of a study being used to attempt to prove a point that the authors of the study had no intention of studying. To sum up, they put the hives there, and did nothing to make increase in order to be able to replace deadouts. How is this anything other than beehaving? If they had treated the hives, the same thing would have occurred, though it might have taken a bit longer. The average loss for treated hives was over 30% last year, if I'm remembering correctly. At that rate, those yards, if treated, would have lasted a year longer than the the untreated ones did.

    Is it fair to conclude from this that inevitable death is the reality for those who do treat?

    This study attempted to quantify many things about pests and disease, about locale, about climate. It really has very little to do with beekeeping reality, whether treating or not treating.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    You left out this part
    And this is what a great many new tf beekeepers do.......after having read all the internet pumping.
    Much of the other stuff....increasing for deadouts or lack of available tf bees (except, of course the kind I point out in the snake oil thread) get over looked or are conveniently not part of many tf proponents' posts.
    And so, this is 'tf reality' for many (the majority, in my opinion) of new tf beekeepers.....and the study, intentional or otherwise, had everything to do with that reality.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  17. #57

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    > The average loss for treated hives was over 30% last year,
    >Is it fair to conclude from this that inevitable death is the reality for those who do treat?

    Using ‘data’ from a random poll without a stitch of oversight? I think not.
    I typically lose about 15% and the greatest majority of those are colonies that went queenless. That’s my reality.

    >did nothing to make increase in order to be able to replace deadouts

    And you think the average tf newbie understands this? I’ve read many of Michael Bush’s posts….and I don’t remember him suggesting this to any tf wannabe. Show me I’m wrong.

    I stand by my post....the results of this study are the usual reality for new tf beekeepers.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    > The average loss for treated hives was over 30% last year,
    >Is it fair to conclude from this that inevitable death is the reality for those who do treat?

    Using ‘data’ from a random poll without a stitch of oversight? I think not.
    I typically lose about 15% and the greatest majority of those are colonies that went queenless. That’s my reality.

    >did nothing to make increase in order to be able to replace deadouts

    And you think the average tf newbie understands this? I’ve read many of Michael Bush’s posts….and I don’t remember him suggesting this to any tf wannabe. Show me I’m wrong.

    I stand by my post....the results of this study are the usual reality for new tf beekeepers.

    Total losses of managed honey bee colonies nationwide were 31.1 percent from all causes for the 2012/2013 winter, according to the annual survey conducted by the Bee Informed Partnership and the Apiary Inspectors of America (AIA) and funded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).
    http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/beelosses/index.htm?pf=1

    If you have a better source, I'd like to see it. If not, then my usual approach is to work from the best data available, rather than throwing up my hands and saying "No conclusions can be reached because the data are not perfect."

    Does it really need to be pointed out explicitly that if your bees die, you will have to replace them? New beekeepers may be ignorant, but I don't think many of them are functionally retarded. Every day on BeeSource I see new beekeepers asking about their problem hives, and they frequently are advised to make increase, to have more than one hive, etc. This has nothing to do with treating or not treating. It's just beekeeping. Michael Bush has a large section on his site and in his book on the subject of making splits. Any tf newcomer here on BeeSource will immediately be assured by those who treat that his hives will soon die. Do you really think most are so stupid that it wouldn't occur to them that they will have to somehow replace those dead hives? When I was researching beekeeping last winter, before I owned a single bee, I immediately realized several things about beekeeping, and first among them was the fact that hives die. And must be replaced. This has nothing to do with treatment vs, non-treatment.

    Tim Ives has half the loss rate you have and doesn't treat. That's his reality. Some very good commercial beekeepers lost more than half their hives last year and that is their reality. The plural of anecdote is not data.

    My point is that if that study you cite has anything to do with the reality of treatment free beekeeping, it's nothing more than a coincidence, because that study didn't have anything to do with actual beekeeping of any sort. There was no "keeping" involved. It was a study that used beehaving to gather some data about factors relating to colony survival in different areas and climates. And that was it.

    I have to ask this, because it puzzles me: Why do you care about this? Treatment free beekeepers keep only a minute fraction of the hives in this country, so why does it matter to you if some of them fail? Some of those who treat fail as well, especially new beekeepers. Why does it matter to you at all if some of us want to try a different way to keep bees?

    My father used to say, whenever I had a problem that seemed like a big deal to me, "In a hundred years, it won't matter."

    My father was a very wise man.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    20 years ago you could buy a package of Southern bees and put them in a hive and expect them to survive the winter in Nebraska. It's been a downhill slide since then. I have not seen that for well over a decade now. Typically a package doesn't make it through the first winter unless it's requeened with local stock. Treat or don't treat, without winter-hardy stock your package bees won't survive a NE or MN or WI or IA winter most of the time. Wintering is all about stock that can survive and not letting them starve.

    >.the results of this study are the usual reality for new tf beekeepers.

    The results of this study are the usual reality for beekeepers who don't requeen those packages.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The results of this study are the usual reality for beekeepers who don't requeen those packages.
    A major proportion of all packages belonging to newbees.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

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