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  1. #81
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    So... espousing a point of view that disagrees with yours is "pushing?" I'm just trying to get a baseline here.
    No but half truths and misleading info is, such as leaving out your honey production numbers, or makeing wild claims like southern queens can't handle northern climates.

    Pushing is a bit of an understatemant for what is done here.

  2. #82
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    May 2013
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    Halfway, Oregon, USA
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    160

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    The idea that you can use a pesticide to kill bugs on other bugs without suffering any severe unforeseen consequences just seems a bit insane to me. Remember, I'm a guy who think spraying for bugs on vegetables is a dumb idea... I believe that if other folks are able to keep bees without treatments, I should be able to do it too.
    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    You just have.

    In your 50 years of organic gardening….have you ever treated with insecticidal soaps or Bt sprays or dusts…or any of those other organically acceptable…pesticides?

    Or do you simply plant your vegetables and allow nature to take her course?
    For some reason I feel sucked into supporting rhaldrige, perhaps as a fellow organic farmer and as a TF beekeeper.

    Beemandan - while commercial and sideline producers of organic produce may occasionally resort to Bt and other OMRI certified chemicals, there is an understanding that this represents an imbalance in the farmscape.

    While producers may resort to treatment of the symptoms in order to produce a crop in the short term, there is an awareness that one must evaluate the balance of inputs/exports on the farm. Instead, seeking the CAUSE of the symptoms, and always striving to use natural balances as opposed to imposing man-made chemicals.

  3. #83
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    makeing wild claims like southern queens can't handle northern climates.
    You quoted Michael Bush saying that and then ascribe its saying to me. What gives?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #84
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    No but half truths and misleading info is, such as leaving out your honey production numbers
    I post them all the time, what are you on about?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Pushing is a bit of an understatemant for what is done here.
    Huh?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  5. #85
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,711

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Where did I publicly "push" anything?
    You've never publically pushed anything without experience? LOL.

    Let me remind you the reason you originally took a dislike to me and eventually blocked me. (although I know you still read my posts).

    It was not, as you have several times claimed, anything to do with treatment / non treatment. It came from your first thread, which was primarily devoted to pushing your idea that long hives must be better because bees like to move sideways rather than vertically. At the time, you had no experience.
    Thinking I was helping, I pointed out that bees prefer to move vertically, an observation based on experience. This was met with hostility and refusal to change the viewpoint you were pushing. The argument got so bad you ended up telling everyone you had blocked a certain person (me).

    You want an example of pushing something with no experience? That would be one, of many. By the way, I bear no hostility over it, and have no interest in whether of not you block me, happy to chat again if you ever get over yourself. Just, you asked where you have pushed something with no experience, there is one example. Your last post in this thread was another, as keeping bees a few months is not enough time to make a call from experience about the value of mite treatments / non mite treatments.

    Having said all that, we all have to start somewhere, we read what we can, and do what seems best. That's fine and the way it should be. Best I can tell, you have thus far done rather well, and researched thoroughly. You have my congratulations. But to claim you have never pushed anything without experience........
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 09-05-2013 at 02:35 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #86
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    No but half truths and misleading info is,
    What half truths? What misleading info? I'd be happy to clarify anything you didn't understand correctly.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #87

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post
    Beemandan - while commercial and sideline producers of organic produce may occasionally resort to Bt and other OMRI certified chemicals, there is an understanding that this represents an imbalance in the farmscape.
    I understand...I am simply wondering if rhaldridge accepts that same principle in his organic gardening that he proposes in beekeeping. After preaching a treatment free sermon on beekeeping without any significant experience....I was wondering if his fifty years as an organic gardener kept him on the straight and narrow in that venue.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  8. #88
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    My earlier post got deleted, On this forum the "natural guys like you Solomon, (NOT MB) and preach the the natural beekeeping...... Making anyone who disagrees with your ways feel like they are not beekeepers. instead of being supportive of all and guiding, you like to preach.

    Half truths, pointing out that southern queens are inferior when moved north...
    Feral bees are more resistant to everything from mites to taxes....
    Disparaging those who feed, or treat... as they have made some grevious error........ Fort the most part, I like your post, you actually seem to try to help..... But your constant disparaging of others and there methods grows old......... I think at times your day job is a Jehovah witness...
    Like packages,,, you badmouth them like the plague,,, but fail to realize that 90% of the beekeepers out there use them.
    You say southern queens are terrible... yet most Canadians use Hawaiian queens and do fantastic with them......

    My original post, I respectuful disagreed with Michael on southern queens.... A good queen is a good queen be she from FLA of NY..... and a bad queen is the same. Lots of beekeepers with more experince than you and me combined have spent DECADES testing both. and found that MYTH to be malarky........

    I like natural beekeeping... I do almost nothing for treatments... but not foolish enough to belive beekeeping is anywhere near natural, and that there are any wizards out there.
    I have at length tested the Local vs, southern, small cell vs large cell and not fed vs fed......... while my conclusions are my own, I also realize that those who swear one way or the other are usualy wrong. If not the whole world would be buying notheren treatment free queens and nucs. truth is none of it holds up under real world scrutiny as of yet...... some locals it seems to be. working.... but funny how when "survivor stock queens are sold, the seem to be damaged in shipment. or not adapting to the local climate.

    I buy queens from over a dozen places...... some in the north, some in the south.... no differences..... some are good, some are not... Feral bees tend to be the same..... some great, most marginal at best.

    Reality check is needed...

  9. #89
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    That's "Jehovah's Witness." It's not a job, it's a religion. Jehovah's Witnesses have no paid clergy.

    I've never claimed to be natural.

    "Preach" is subjective, pejorative, and ultimately meaningless outside a church or unless one is standing on a box. I share my experience.

    I've always promoted local stock, this comes from experience.

    Feral bees are local or at least local long enough to swarm, therefore I promote them. My experience is that swarms survive quite well when established properly.

    Disparaging those who feed? Never happened. Maybe you're thinking of Tim Ives.

    Packages fail, a lot. I would like to prevent that as much as possible. Buy nucs if you must buy. That's my experience.

    My last Hawaiian hive crashed so hard it left a trail of mites across the yard. Just experience.

    All my southern queens died eventually. Most died before their first birthday. That's my experience.

    Buy bees from wherever you want. You're not a novice nor a TF, to whom my "preachings" are directed.

    That is the reality. Experience is reality.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #90
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Thats YOUR reality... 90% of the country has a different one.. which is the part you fail to mention... your living in YOUR world... fine... but the world is not flat because you say it is......

    By your own admission, even your natural bees all but died off the first few years.... maybe it was your package supplier, maybe it was your beekkeeping skills back then... don't know...

    Like I said, your a decent guy...... just put away the soap box. and please quit badmouthing the way most get into beekeeipng.........

    Oh the other "half truth you and others like to push is the
    "package queens get superceeded" You forget to mention that a package is an artificial swarm, and that almost all swarms replace there queens within 6 weeks of swarming........ funny how those details get dumped

  11. #91
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Sorry Charlie, but you're mistaken. Sharing my experience which is my experience does not equal claiming the world is flat. Even then, disagreement or promotion or recommending against any given method does not equal disparaging people or "badmouthing". That's a fundamentally uncivil accusation. I am one of the most open and forthright users of this forum and always have been. If there's something you don't understand, all you need to do is ask. You don't need to invent my history. That's dishonest.

    I share my experience, positive, negative and otherwise. That's realism. I am a treatment-free beekeeper, so that's realism in treatment-free beekeeping.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  12. #92
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    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,249

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    You just have.
    Got it. Expressing an opinion is exactly the same as "pushing." I take it you think that beginners are like children-- they should be seen but never heard. You must face constant disappointment.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    In your 50 years of organic gardening….have you ever treated with insecticidal soaps or Bt sprays or dusts…or any of those other organically acceptable…pesticides?

    Or do you simply plant your vegetables and allow nature to take her course?
    Oh sure. Organic gardeners have all sorts of stopgap ways to bridge between bad soil's sickly plants and good soil's healthy plants. I've used BT, and if there were a BT for mites, I'd probably use it too. It's not a pesticide, and would not affect hive biota negatively.

    I'm not a fanatic. That's why I've never insulted anyone over their management practices. I'm also not an idiot, and I arrived at the choices I've made through research and careful deliberation. Not everyone jumps on a bandwagon because they like the way it looks and it promises to take them to some idyllic location. Some of us read the bus schedules.

    I have to say, Dan, you seem to have enormous contempt for the intelligence of new beekeepers. Everything you post seems to denigrate them, unless they happen to adhere to your narrow definition of proper beekeeping.

    Iif you really think TF beekeeping amounts to dumping bees in a box and allowing "nature to take her course," you really don't know enough about the subject to comment on it.

  13. #93
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    My original post, I respectuful disagreed with Michael on southern queens.... A good queen is a good queen be she from FLA of NY..... and a bad queen is the same. Lots of beekeepers with more experince than you and me combined have spent DECADES testing both. and found that MYTH to be malarky.........
    I would love to read more about this. Do you have any links to the literature that you are referring to.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I have to say, Dan, you seem to have enormous contempt for the intelligence of new beekeepers
    Not in general but certainly those whose beekeeping knowledge is based solely on the writings of a select few and who then feel the need to regurgitate those controversial concepts as though they are absolute fact.

    You, on the other hand, seem to have a great disdain for experienced beekeepers...unless they agree with you. Which makes it especially amazing to me that you were so quick to tell us that you have fifty years experience as an organic gardener…clearly believing that that amount of experience made your opinions more credible….at the same time convinced that experience as a beekeeper is of no consequence…or even less.
    Last edited by beemandan; 09-05-2013 at 06:13 PM.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  15. #95
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    We're not all 'just beekeepers'.

    If been able to find many scientific studies on feral 'resistant' stock in the U.S. .

    I've also seen many reports of TF beekeepers successfully hiving, and propagating, those same stocks.

    With continued reports of feral colonies returning to many areas, how long will it be before we can all take advantage of feral resistant stock?
    Last edited by WLC; 09-05-2013 at 06:34 PM.

  16. #96
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,304

    Default Re: Realism and Treatment free beekeeping

    Perhaps this thread has run its course, given all the debate about "meaning of the word is is."

    Yes, time to close another one.
    Regards, Barry

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