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  1. #1

    Default Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Nice sanctuary you have here. No mention of treatments allowed. And that is fine with me. But…if you look in the Bee Forum you’ll find a thread posted that the op was asking what treatments people are using. He didn’t ask if he should treat. He didn’t ask who treated and who didn’t. And the treatment free folks have piled on. Hardly reasonable.
    I may argue with Sol over here from time to time…we have our differences of opinion….that’s allowed….isn’t it? But I’ve never advised anyone here that they should abandon tf. I believe that I’ve honored those rules.
    Does it not seem like a fundamental common courtesy that tf folks would do the same for others?
    I don’t plan to wring my hands as some have done, demanding moderator intervention. I’m simply asking if people with other beliefs should be allowed to engage in a dialog anywhere on Beesource? Or do you have your sanctuary and everyone else is fair game?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    I second that....

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Be Nice people.

    Barry chimed in yesterday and said that mention of treatments is Not taboo on this forum as long as It is in context of working towards or becoming treatment free. We all need to be respectful, help each other and stop trying to make converts. If someone offends you with their preachiness then put them on your ignore list, or just ignore them, or go smoke some bees. Preaching back usually doesn't help. life is too short.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Baker Oregon
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Dan, on this one I must disagree with you. The topic was raised in the general beekeeping forum, so discussing TX free beekeeping would also fall under the general beekeeping category. If the thread was in Diseases and Pest I would say you would have a point.

    That however does not excuse the zealotry that occurred in the thread. I find it irritating as well.

    Dan Hayden
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
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    624

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Does it not seem like a fundamental common courtesy that tf folks would do the same for others?
    Yes they should. Some zealots and naivete on this side of the table and it's embarrassing.

    Don

  6. #6

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Quote Originally Posted by RiodeLobo View Post
    The topic was raised in the general beekeeping forum, so discussing TX free beekeeping would also fall under the general beekeeping category.
    I agree with you in part Dan. There's no reason that treatment free beekeeping can't be discussed in the General Beekeeping forum....or for that matter in Diseases and Pests. My complaint is that the topic of the thread is what 'TREATMENTS' people are using......and, in my opinion, treatment free is not a form of treatment. It might even be acceptable if they limited themselves to saying only....'I don't treat'. But they don't stop there. Some feel the compulsion to preach a sermon.

    If a topic arises where tf is an appropriate part of the discussion....I'm fine. But this isn't one.

    About a week ago a beekeeper asked about applying ApiLife Var....and a tf beekeeper chimed in and said no...no....no...you should read Michael Bush's website.

    Does that seem ok to you?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  7. #7
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    Oct 2010
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    Baker Oregon
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    I agree with you. I don't understand the compulsion to sermonize the issue.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    In the written rules for this forum it states that no discussion of treating is allowed and that is the way the rules were enforced when this forum started. If that has been changed that is an improvement that I was not aware of.

    I agree that if a person does not treat they should not answer a query about what treatment is being used. It was rude when the question about treatments was answered as it was, and by more than one treatment free beekeeper. The thread immediately got off topic and became a rant more than a discussion. This has occured often in the other forums, and is usually begun by a treatment free "zealot."

    In the past, the treatment free advocates made their view known in the other forums and then would stifle dissent here in the treatment free forum. There should not be a forum where an opinion can not be discussed, but it should be done in a gentlemanly fashion.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Panama City, Florida, USA
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    530

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Quote Originally Posted by RiodeLobo View Post
    so discussing TX free beekeeping would also fall under the general beekeeping category.
    Texas free beekeeping, that is what I practice.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    Be Nice people.
    I thought I'd written this nicely...and think I am being respectful.
    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    stop trying to make converts
    And I wasn't trying to make any converts.
    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    If someone offends you with their preachiness then put them on your ignore list
    I am actually doing a bit of this but....when someone asks a treatment question it is hard to ignore a boatload of preachers in your face....in my opinion.

    The main reason I posted this thread in the tf forum was to see if the consensus of tf folks believe that the behavior I described reflects poor manners....or if the evangelists are the norm.

    Not much to be done either way...I often find myself curious about human nature and how it differs in various circles.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
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    689

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Trying to interact conscientously and deliberately on this forum is nigh difficult.
    Developing races of bees that are able to resist imported parasite syndromes at an economic threshold is a difficult and time-consuming task. It is not made easier by some of the inaccurate zealotry bandied about.

    Efforts to select and improve queenstock, reduce treatments, efforts to avoid inducing resistance in parasites, efforts to avoid practices that push hyper-virulence are all worth discussing, implementing and evaluating broadly.

    There is an intolerant strain on this forum that believes with absolute, but false and woeful naive certainty, that "Bond Test" mortality is the only path towards the implementing methods of treatment reduction. It is sad and distressing to see such antipathy misdirected at the very people whom are trying to help these folks achieve their goal.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    4,285

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    I've given my own views on this forum regarding 'Bond' bees.
    I've even participated in many both constructive and contentious threads on the topic.
    It's a forum fellas.
    Of course it can get out of hand.

    However, is this thread about, talking about, talking about treatment free beekeeping?

    And, by the way, what makes you think that you hold the moral high ground?

    I'm certainly not conceding that as a given.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    WLC that's a fundamental question on IBS.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #14

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Amen JWChesnut
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    The term 'Bond' bees comes from an actual experiment in Gotland, Sweden. It's in the scientific literature. Those "Live and Let Die" bees are still going strong and being studied.

    Some treatment free beekeepers, here in the U.S., have replicated that methodology to get resistant bees.

    And yes, the methodology does work.

    I've discussed it, and given my own views on it many times.

  16. #16
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    The current moderator clarified his position on the matter a few days ago. Far as he is concerned, he will permit treatment to be discussed on this forum, provided it's in the context of moving towards non treatment. So an example might be, somebody has improved their strain, and has reduced treatment needs from 5 years ago 100% of colonies, 3 years ago 50% of colonies, 1 year ago 20% of colonies. Projected 3 year plan, 0% of colonies. The moderator would likely permit that, of course every permutation of a discussion is hard to define so he would use his personal discretion, as moderator and final authority. So with common sense, other methods than just bond can be discussed.

    If someone said their hive is full of mites what should I do? Somebody could not say treat it. Not here, anyway.

    Sounds as fair as you can get to me, particularly in light of my own experience where bond didn't work.

    As to the other threads mentioned where people wanted advice on treatment options but were told not to treat, some of those posts were so far off the wall I found it pretty funny, had a good chuckle. These types of posts are normally from somebody very inexperienced and it can be kindest not to be too hard on the person. There are a couple of "old hands" who also like to chip in to argue and derail, they of course, are fair game.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    First of all, I have complained about how the special rules were pushed through, and I've also complained how a small group was trying to coopt the chemical free and IPM approaches to beekeeping.

    As for the other thread, if you're using an unregistered chemical like OA to treat your hives for mites, don't throw stones.

    You're sort of like a 'poster child' for chemical free beekeeping.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    lawson, mo. usa
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    46

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    I agree with David. Life is too short. Take a chair and a few beers out to the hives and sit and watch.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerdean View Post
    Take a chair and a few beers out to the hives and sit and watch.
    Excellent suggestion. I worked on some candle molds and cleaned up the honey house today....and now, I think a Corona on the back deck is in order.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #20
    Join Date
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    Tucson, Arizona, USA
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    Default Re: Nice sanctuary you have here......

    Personally, I have no trouble reading any and everything written in posts, no matter the forum, thread, or topic. I can easily choose to accept, reject, or ignore what is written, no matter who has written it. I appreciate that so many people are willing to share their thoughts with the rest of us. Sometimes I share my own perspective, though I don't usually feel compelled to do so.

    As long as my neighbors don't actually interfere with what I want to do and how I do it, I really don't care what they think about what I'm doing. Forums, like this one are ideal for allowing me to find out what my neighbors are thinking. And even if I don't agree with them, by hearing their ideas, I can learn even more, and develop my own ideas even more completely.

    Maybe if I read the litany of any particular poster, or all posters, enough times, I may someday reach an epiphany and/or experience a paradigm shift in my personal point of view. I welcome the illumination.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

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