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  1. #161
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The whole thread was a bad idea from the start.

    It was set up to find out who said something wrong (in the OP's opinion), and punish them.

    Course that's divisive, had to go bad.
    I totaly disagree. Ray was asking so he could better understand. He was seaking to understand why what was stated was true or if it was true how such a thing should be handled.

    Had Ray been out to punish someone he would have quoted the Post in question and published the Posters name. He intentionally did not do that. Or maybe he doesn't know how to quote a Post to another Thread any better than I do.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  2. #162
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Hazel, I think you miss my point. It has nothing to do with numbers. When YOUR colony breaks down with AFB, just where do you think it came from? Not from the air, not from the ground...but from a neighboring hive that died from the disease.
    Actually this is how I think it is spread.

    Transmission: The spores are fed to young larvae by the nurse bees. They then germinate in the gut of the larva and multiply rapidly, causing the larva to die soon after it has been sealed in its cell. By the time of death of the larva, the new spores have formed. When the house bees clean out the cell containing the dead larva, these spores are distributed throughout the hive and more and more larvae become infected. The honey in an infected colony can become contaminated with spores and can be a source of infection for any bee that gains access to it. For example, as a colony becomes weak, it cannot defend itself from attacks by robber bees from strong nearby colonies; these robbers take back the contaminated honey to their own colony, continuing the cycle of infection. The beekeeper also may inadvertently spread the disease by exposing contaminated honey to other bees or by the interchange of infected equipment. Moreover, drifting bees or swarms issuing from an infected colony may spread the disease.

    Bold added for emphasis to the fact that your strong hives are just as likely to spread it as weak ones are.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  3. #163
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The whole thread was a bad idea from the start.

    It was set up to find out who said something wrong (in the OP's opinion), and punish them.

    Course that's divisive, had to go bad.
    Yeah, God forbid you ask questions about beekeeping around here. I mean jeez, who do people think they are anyway. Totally asinine idea to start such a thread. Some people just don't seem to know how to behave themselves before the alter of the elite.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    If we are going to discuss ways that AFB gets around, buying it is source number one, robbing infected equipment is number two, infected swarms is low on the list. Consider that a swarm from an infected hive will whenarriving at its new home turn honey in their stomachs into wax and then comb thereby making the infectious spores unavailable in enough a concentration to reinfect the colony.

    There is a chart somewhere that illustrates this. Maybe in the Diseases Pests, and Predators book.

    Never the less, Michael knows what he is talking about. You can't go wrong listening to Michael. Not that Daniel is wrong.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  5. #165
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Yeah, God forbid you ask questions about beekeeping around here. I mean jeez, who do people think they are anyway. Totally asinine idea to start such a thread. Some people just don't seem to know how to behave themselves before the alter of the elite.
    Thanks Daniel, that's the funniest Post in this Thread. "the alter of the elite." lol
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  6. #166
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    "Alter" ?? Surprised you missed that. I actually read that over a few times, trying to figure out if it was a play on words...... maybe it is...
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  7. #167
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I totaly disagree. Ray was asking so he could better understand.
    OK, well if you and Daniel say so.

    Just, I read the thread that Ray referred to, knew exactly who he was talking about, have heard Ray's opinion on the matter, and saw it as an attempt to re-open matters from an acrimonious closed thread, and zone in on the statement by the person concerned. Which of course, it was.

    The person concerned has wisely refrained for the most part, from joining this discussion.

    But as you guys see it different, I've re-read the post, and can see your way of looking at it.

    However it was obvious soon as I saw the opening post how the thread would go. Ray didn't know that already?

    After nine pages of predictable acrimony, has his question been answered? If not, what answer does he want?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-30-2013 at 06:53 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #168
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Lots of interesting lessons in this thread, a real study in life experiences and human nature. Mr. Palmers experience is certainly not to be ignored. I have had similar ones myself. I will, however, maintain my contention that disease spread is not a "treatment, non-treatment" issue as much as it is an issue of good beekeeping practice. Combining hives, reducing entrances and careful feeding practices. I believe it is more of a challenge to control robbing in untreated hives in equal conditions but it's doable. The greatest challenge in controlling robbing that I have found is in large holding and wintering locations with lots and lots of hives around. That scenario is pretty much uniquely commercial.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  9. #169
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    After nine pages of predictable acrimony, has his question been answered? If not, what answer does he want?
    I think squarepeg summed it up nicely:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...044#post993044
    Regards, Barry

  10. #170
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Lots of interesting lessons in this thread, a real study in life experiences and human nature. Mr. Palmers experience is certainly not to be ignored. I have had similar ones myself. I will, however, maintain my contention that disease spread is not a "treatment, non-treatment" issue as much as it is an issue of good beekeeping practice. Combining hives, reducing entrances and careful feeding practices. I believe it is more of a challenge to control robbing in untreated hives in equal conditions but it's doable. The greatest challenge in controlling robbing that I have found is in large holding and wintering locations with lots and lots of hives around. That scenario is pretty much uniquely commercial.
    I agree Jim, and was only attempting to answer the OP in an informed way.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    No one is faulting anyone for trying to protect their source of income.

    Yet, the finger of blame can be pointed every which way.

    By relying on treatments too heavily, you're simply creating resistant strains of pests, pathogens, and parasites. A.K.A., the treadmill.

    When the product you're relying on is no longer effective because the target has become resistant, YOU become the source of those pests, parasites, and pathogens contaminating local apiaries.

    It happens far too often.

    IPM is still the best model we have though.

    However, I think that methods that are closer to the treatment free/chemical free approach are showing their potential.

    I would hold up the return of feral colonies as real world evidence supporting the 'treatment free' model of beekeeping.

    We just need to apply the lessons of 'the return of the feral colonies' to our own beekeeping practices.

  12. #172
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Well, I've found this a very interesting and useful thread. I'm sorry about the acrimony, but what can you do?

    I find myself in the position of being the least experienced person in the room in most threads. I try to make up for this a little by studying the literature constantly and thinking really really hard about the subject, but I know I don't always succeed. I'm beginning to see that the older you get, the harder it is to learn new stuff, and I'm pretty old.

    Anyway, as Mark said, it seems that the problem is beehavers, and I think it's reasonable to assume that many beginners who have jumped on the treatment free bandwagon will indeed fall into the category of beehavers. I suppose their hives are not much worse than feral hives, from the collapse and rob-out point of view. Still, I have to admit that the original criticism is valid in the case of beehavers. I wish we could agree to only level that particular criticism at folks like that.

    I do have another question: what about winter deadouts? Are they as likely to be a source of contagion-- mites, nosema, AFB-- as hives that die when the bees are flying? My guess is no, but I'd like to hear from others with more experience.

    I've only had one instance where I was concerned about robbing, but I think I was wrong. I caught a swarm in a 5 frame nuc box up in NY, and hauled it down to FL. When I opened it, it was really full of bees. A nearby split in an identical nuc box was immediately covered in bees. My reaction was to make the second nuc's entrance very small and put a robbing screen on. But I think it turned out not to be robbing, because the split had a frame of honey in it, and that was not molested. I think the bees were just confused after their long trip and returned to the wrong nuc box.

  13. #173
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    i usually skip these threads because they usually devolve quickly.

    remind me what the consistence is on treatment free?

    thats
    no powdered sugar?
    no chemical treatment (Acaricide etc)
    no removal of a drone frame and freeze it
    no fogging

    anything else?

  14. #174
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    I wasn't referring to the reaction to Pippi as the only time I've experienced this belittling attitude towards non-commercial/newbie beekeepers. As a radical fanatic myself, I can sympathize with his/her sincerity, though I do know when to back down myself (I think). It is pretty intimidating to always have to be proving oneself based on our commercial credentials.

    I am wondering how the focus of this thread went from mite loads to AFB?? Of course in my opinion, TF hives are, at worst, supplying treated hives with less resistant mites. And the treatment folks are supplying me with their less-resistant drones. It seems that what most people have come to conclusion of, is that whether you are treating or not, you owe yourself and fellow beekeepers the act of monitoring your failing hives to prevent disease transmission. In the areas that I have kept bees, AFB is a non-issue. I've never seen it. I am sure I would notice a hive that diseased, it doesn't seem to me that that really has anything to do with TF vs Treatment. My radical sentiments lead me to believe that the robust gut flora of my non-transported, OG irrigated ag-land foraging, TF bees would be competitive with invasive bacteria/disease.

    As for my philosophies on beekeeping as a business... I just think that this niche specialization is what got us into trouble. Keeping only bees for pollination or honey production seems a folly to me in lines with producers of ONLY soybeans, almonds, beef cattle etc. I do not blame the practitioners(at least I try not to), because I know this is merely a reaction to US and global market demands. Which requires people doing these entirely non-holistic practices, which in turn allows them to fall prey to the need to reach for chemical solutions. Because you cannot reconcile commercial/industrial demands with the desires to be TF, or organic, or biodynamic, or a user of hand-scale/convivial technology. Though I know that a select few have experienced success with converting their commercial operations to be TF, they are still a far cry from promoting the natural seasonality of the bee.

    I hesitate to fully expound on my medicinal hive product business model, mostly out of insecurity for being accused of woo-woo. But I will say that I aspire to not more the 100 hives, maybe 150 annual peak with nucs. Honestly, as few as I can get away with while still supporting a TF breeding program. Time will tell what this magic number is. As far as products go, I am looking at propolis (medicinal tincture), honey, and wax for salves. My goal is to harness the miraculous alchemical process that bees preform between flowers and the sun. TF is an obvious choice for me.

    My outlook on bees as a part of the farm-scape is that, they should be a part of the whole picture. That is, if you are producing bees, you should also be producing things that benefit and are benefiting from, bees. For example, orchard plantings and seed production, especially of pollinator crops like sweet clover, hyssop, phacelia, buckwheat, borage, etc... Promoting organic land management and diversified livestock rotations, like grazing poultry in your orchard instead of spraying for pests. Or growing medicinal or gourmet mushrooms to compete with predatory fungus, instead of spraying fungicides that annihilate bee gut flora, making them susceptible to nosema, AFB etc... OK anyway, who is still reading this? I have go to work.

  15. #175
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post

    My goal is to harness the miraculous alchemical process that bees preform between flowers and the sun. TF is an obvious choice for me.

    k.
    Does "Alchemical" refer to Alchemy.... as in lead to gold?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  16. #176
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    After nine pages of predictable acrimony, has his question been answered? If not, what answer does he want?
    I think his question was answered a number of times by a number of answerers. Michael Palmer and myself are two that I recall. I think I answered twice.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  17. #177
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I do have another question: what about winter deadouts? Are they as likely to be a source of contagion-- mites, nosema, AFB-- as hives that die when the bees are flying? My guess is no, but I'd like to hear from others with more experience.
    Mites, No. Nosema, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Maybe nosema spores would be picked up from the comb surface or the honey by robbing bees. AFB, for sure, if it is present or the colony died from AFB.

    Many beekeepers stand deadouts up on end on the bottom board come Spring or even during the Summer season. It helps keep equipment from being destroyed by wax moth. Unless disease free, it can spread problems.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  18. #178
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Does "Alchemical" refer to Alchemy.... as in lead to gold?
    Where ya been Herb? Out on the outer banks?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  19. #179
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Many beekeepers stand deadouts up on end on the bottom board come Spring or even during the Summer season. It helps keep equipment from being destroyed by wax moth. Unless disease free, it can spread problems.
    anyone in the heavy shb area's do this and does the light keep the shb's from destroying the hive?
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  20. #180
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    The OP was about a specific case originally voiced by wildbranch I believe. I hope I'm not throwing him under the bus, so to speak.
    gee I didn't think I said anything that would get someone excited, so I went back and read my post, still don't see anything much, but I don't mind going under the bus, I always wanted to meet Keith Jarrett and I heard he lives under the bus.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

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