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I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

48K views 409 replies 44 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
In another thread, recently closed (due to acrimony, I suppose) an interesting contention was made. In short, the complaint was that treatment free beekeepers pose a risk to those who treat, because when the untreated hives collapse, they make it harder for nearby treaters to control mites and other pathogenic organisms.

The reason I don't understand this complaint is that it seems to ignore the evidence from the BeeInformed survey that indicates that treated hives collapse at similar rates to untreated. I could understand the complaint if treatment were able to prevent colony loss, but obviously, it doesn't. Even if you find the BeeInformed survey a dubious resource, just reading the news will provide plenty of examples of commercial beekeepers who treat and still lose large percentages of their colonies.

If collapsing colonies pose a threat to those with healthy hives, then logically, the risk would be far greater for those who don't treat, because they are so greatly outnumbered by those who do, and non-treaters also have to deal with a local genetic overload of less-resistant bees.

I'd like to see this discussed in a civil manner... and hope that is possible.
 
#275 ·
Barry:

What proportion of commercial beekeepers are making an actual middle class income?

They're numbers are dwindling for a reason.

So, you'll have to somehow show real numbers for that so that we have a baseline.

Are most commercial beekeepers actually making a middle class income from beekeeping alone, or are there other sources of income as well?

I dunno?
 
#283 ·
tim, could you talk about your splitting technique a little more?

it sounds like your select your 'weak' hives, the ones that don't move down to the bottom box, and split out the queen and ten frames and one deep and sell that to a newbee.

what is done with the remaining two deeps?
 
#289 ·
Barry:

I mean really.

I don't mean to pry, but do you consider yourself to be middle class?

I most certainly am.

Or, perhaps working class/blue collar?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

How much money would a TF beekeeper need to make to meet 'the standard'?

I said $40k once. But, that's just a basic 'take home pay' number.

Middle class is much more than that.

Here's part of my point, TFB just needs to meet your needs to be a 'success'.

If you can earn a living at it, even better.

I'm not going to agree that 'middle class' is the standard.

That's just too subjective.

As for the real middle class, we have portfolios, annuities, pensions, investments, assets, etc. .

I'm not feeling you're 'vibe', if you know what I mean.

By the way, Les Crowder's way of life is every bit as valid as my own.

You know where I'm from. You know I understand. I earned my way into the middle class.

WLC.
 
#290 ·
I'm not interested in passing judgment on anyone, but for goodness sake, when someone says there are TF commercial beekeepers, we have to have an understanding as to what that means. Why have different "classes" of beekeeping if we aren't going to define them and then follow them in our discussion? That's fine, people can call themselves whatever they want. When I see what "commercial" equals with various beekeepers, I know what it means to some and what it means to others. Most of the ones I know share a similar lifestyle.
 
#295 ·
I'm not interested in passing judgment on anyone, but for goodness sake, when someone says there are TF commercial beekeepers, we have to have an understanding as to what that means. .
How about "Makes a living from bees."

If you start parsing the quality and/or magnitude of that living, we all make a very poor showing compared to the oligarchs.
 
#291 ·
Barry:

Are they really middle class though? I'm not convinced that everything is 'honky dorey' in the world of commercial beekeepers.

When I hear that the biggest commercial beekeeper in the U.S. lost 55% of his colonies over winter, and is now suing the EPA, you know what I think?

Alot of commercials may be in a spiral.

Meaning, they can't meet their obligations.

So, maybe, just maybe, we need to keep the migratory pollinators out of the TFB 'success' equation.

How about a change in perspective?

How many years do you personally think it will take TFB beekeepers to become 'successful?

Or, have you abandoned all hope?

There's definitely something different about how you feel about TFB compared to a year or so ago.

What happened?
 
#296 ·
OT:

We've got the major U.S. beekeepers organizations suing the EPA. That doesn't happen in a 'fat' year. They were taking hives in almost any condition into almonds this Feb/Mar. . Of course, the major pollinators already had their contracts ($s) locked in, but I bet you they had to scramble and pay way more for bees than they wanted to.

They didn't make the money they were expecting.

I don't need to ask.

It wasn't a good year for the major migratory pollinators.

So, why even try to compare them to TFB in socio-economic terms?

Do you know any TFBers who want to become migratory pollinators?

The California Central Valley is like a 'cathouse' from Feb. to Mar. .

It's the wrong Zeitgeist for TFB.
 
#299 ·
I really hate to agree with Randy Oliver
My experience is you will agree with anyone if they support whatever is your latest rant / theory / brainwave.

EOD you just spouting more theory.

Theorists who don't know, like yourself, have this idea that they can change the world by foisting their theories on a chat site, onto the doers. The real people, who do it.

But, don't work.

Like I said, why don't you go take a look.
 
#301 ·
Tims opinion, is worth something, cos he's doing it.

It cannot be denied though that he is unusual in the world of TF beekeepers. In fact if all the claims are true, he is the most successful TF beekeeper in the US.

Eventually, hopefully, this will become more commonplace. But for now, it's rare.

In addition, in my opinion, some of the treatment methods being used are not sustainable. But others, such as the Jim Lyon model, are very sustainable and will likely continue to be so till after the oil runs out, and then it's not going to matter.
 
#303 ·
One problem with what I'm doing... There is no patentable solutions to what I'm doing. Can't even really write a book about it, unless you want a picture book. Put bees in a box, then they do this. Add another box then they do this..so on..

Course I got s great picture of Randy Oliver standing there scratching his head as he asks now tell me what your doing again.
 
#304 ·
Tim the "why not go take a look" comment was addressed to someone who needs to do that, not you.

If you say all the ones you know are in "big troubles", then I'm sure they are. Has to be said though, we've been hearing about "big troubles", "bee extinction in three years", etc etc for years now. The industry still rolls on. And the ones in it that I know, make a middle class income. They do work too hard though, that would be a bigger issue.
 
#306 ·
The test of time will determine if TF vs non TF is the more economical route. Check back in 20 years, we should be here.

Not all College educations are expensive. Some get a 4 year free ride, to a private school, and hence no debt.

Some of the contention from commercial people concerning "Bond" beekeepers is that if they stopped letting their hives die, the cost of packages would go down. In the northern areas, a brutal winter can be hard to recover from with out packages.

I have predicted(hence the Crazy moniker) that in 20 years, the only TF beekeepers will be commercial , due to the large capitol investments for decontamination equipment.

Crazy Roland
 
#311 ·
Good job!!! Let's let Father time have a good run and then check back. Beekeeping can be like trying to hit a moving target, sometime the target changes speed and direction, and a change in aim point is in order.

Roland Diehnelt
5 th gen. commercial beekeeper.
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852
 
#312 ·
It was Bret Adee fellas.

That was a loss of over 20 thousand colonies.

Let's all agree that comparing commercials to TFBers was a 'bad idea'. :)

I get the feeling that Tim isn't remotely interested in sending his bees to California.

I'm astonished that he's already applying a distributive model.

Are you sure you don't have a degree Tim?

By the way, how many folks are there in your 'crew' at this time? I mean disciples.
 
#322 ·
I know both.

Tim, how many folks do you have using you methods?
In my immediate area 8-9 last winter out of 150ish. Hard telling now after comparing winter losses. Southern Indiana atleast a dozen. Northern Jersey-a lot. One guy Ed was already close to what I was doing, just wasn't supering soon enough.
Hard telling how many in the state. I'm pretty vocal at both State meetings. The creator of the IBA just lives 5 miles from me. 2011 he lost 50%. Every time he drives into town, he drives by a 6 year Zero loss yard. As he's picking up his deadouts in the spring I'm supering up. How many years would you have to see that before you stop arguing the set paradigm of beehaving. I don't care if you been keeping bees for 60 years. Your's are dead.
 
#319 ·
I'm trying it. :D

Had some hives set up the Tim Ives way for several months now. Just, I don't mess with anything smaller than deeps, all gear is deep. Don't think Tim would see that as an issue though.

Call me anything, but not closeminded. ;)
 
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