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  1. #101
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    My wife would argue the money part of your statement if you are directing it at me. All beekeeping is a black hole apparently. TF or not.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    The TF solution to AFB should be the same as the non-treatment. Burn the hive. EFB, that is a bit different. Just cage the queen and hopefully they will overcome it. If not, they don't need to be in the gene pool. Just my opinion. It is very hard to distinguish true EFB from a host of other bacteriological diseases - and even pollen poisoning, so burning is a bit extreme. IBDS and EFB are very hard to tell apart.

    I have a hive with a caged queen from IBDS while I type. I can see how it would not be a good option for industrialized beekeeping because of the time involved. Much more efficient for the profit margin to just toss on a medicine patty and be done with it.
    Have you tried Lab Confirmation? The Beltville Bee Lab will do it for free.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #103
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    [QUOTE=rhaldridge;992847]Honestly, folks, I didn't mean for this to turn into a slapfight. I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible in the context of the larger community?

    But some interesting stuff has come up.

    Jim, I've quadrupled my colony count, but since it's only been a few months, I can't claim anything at all yet. It might well turn out that I'm not smart enough to succeed at TF beekeeping.







    Good for you Ray, and I mean that sincerely. I read tf accounts with interest and not disdain. My position on the theme of this thread is no, I don't think whether you are treatment free or not has any bearing on the spread of disease, everyones bees have some varroa and all are susceptible to other infectious diseases. What I do think is irresponsible is for any beekeeper to let his hives get weak enough that they are vulnerable to robbing.
    Thanks for calling it like it is too, Ray. It dosent make for constructive dialog when someone comes in here in such a disruptive manner regardless of their point of view. I occassionally challenge Mr. Bush and a few others when I disagree on some key points. I do, though, respect his tone, his knowledge and the manner in which he makes his points and I would hope that some I disagree with feel the same about me. Most folks posting on here eventually learn the art of constructive dialog, that is if they choose to stick around long enough.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #104
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Jim

    Eloquently stated, the key phrase for me being "most folks"..
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  5. #105
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiyolti View Post
    Forum heros such as Mark tend to be the ones throwing daggers and offer nothing more than one liners and indignation. It is no surprise that he has other venues in which to do the same. I have never been one to stay quiet and put my head down as you do at "other" meetings. Feelings need to be hurt, we need to speak out otherwise we get more of the same. Unless you choose not to evolve/adapt, it's your decision.
    As first year beekeepers, you and I have no credibility among those who've worked in the field for decades. All we can reasonably do is ask questions and put forward our theories (and the factual basis for those theories.) If we get combative about stuff we have no first hand experience with, it will only lead to people deciding we're idiots. It's much easier to dismiss the angry rantings of an idiot than the thoughtful questions of someone who is respectful.

    Your attitude is unlikely to convince anyone that you're right and they're wrong. When you lack experience and reputation, your only alternative is guile, and first among the commandments of the wily is to not offend the people you're trying to sell on your ideas.

    You sound like a smart guy who's on the right track, but lacks a grasp of human nature. Either that, or you're working for the miticide companies, here to convince people that the treatment free alternative is only practiced by people they wouldn't like. I kind of prefer the latter explanation because it appeals to my Machiavellian view of the world, but I could be wrong. Sometimes I overthink stuff.

    Anyway, if you search out Mark's posts, you'll see that he does a lot more than issue one-liners and indignation. I think he would agree that he has a somewhat argumentative nature, a common characteristic of beekeepers, but what I like about Mark's forum behavior is that he usually tries to understand what people are saying before he gets irritated.

    All things considered, I'd rather be a forum hero than a forum joke. You're at that fork in the road.

  6. #106
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    Leicester, United Kingdom
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    most of the varroa approved treatments here are based on essential oils but cannot be used until after honey harvest.

  7. #107
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    Jun 2013
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    New Mexico, USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    My wife would argue the money part of your statement if you are directing it at me. All beekeeping is a black hole apparently. TF or not.
    Not here, as long as free/bartered lumber is available. If you don't treat and you allow bees to draw their own comb what else is needed to "run" the show. If I bought new equipment my wife would say "you could have made that....couldn't you?" And to add to my woes I once told her of how some beekeepers got "free" bees from cut-outs. She says "Great! You can do that...can't you?" She saw someone build a house once.........

  8. #108
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    The only real heroes are all dead. I'm not dead. And would never claim hero status. Merely another warrior. And the Father of a Wounded Warrior at that.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #109
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Even "free" bees cost money. Usually the "free" costs more than the store-bought variety. You must be very picky if you go the "free" bee route or you will get nickel and dimed to oblivion.

    And for whomever asked about the testing at Beltsville, yes I did a sample, but my "treatment" will probably be over and done with by the time I hear back. Just have to get them a chance to clear things out so I can let the queen start laying again. If not, it will be too late to do anything with them because of Winter and they will be lost. They were a hive of domestic Cordovans, who were apparently not hygienic enough. I also suspect the pollen got contaminated by a local farmer who sprayed the orchard they were near (heard through the grapevine from the nearby locals). In any case, the uncapped brood all died out and the bees could not keep up cleaning it out. hard to tell as many of the symptoms look the same.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    [QUOTE=jim lyon;992916]
    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post

    Good for you Ray, and I mean that sincerely. I read tf accounts with interest and not disdain. My position on the theme of this thread is no, I don't think whether you are treatment free or not has any bearing on the spread of disease, everyones bees have some varroa and all are susceptible to other infectious diseases. What I do think is irresponsible is for any beekeeper to let his hives get weak enough that they are vulnerable to robbing.
    Thanks for calling it like it is too, Ray. It dosent make for constructive dialog when someone comes in here in such a disruptive manner regardless of their point of view. I occassionally challenge Mr. Bush and a few others when I disagree on some key points. I do, though, respect his tone, his knowledge and the manner in which he makes his points and I would hope that some I disagree with feel the same about me. Most folks posting on here eventually learn the art of constructive dialog, that is if they choose to stick around long enough.
    Jim, I have to say that you're one of my favorite forum posters. This is not just because you were willing to treat me as a non-moron when I hadn't been here for long, and was both a newbie and a non-treater, horrendously disabling conditions that led to much scorn from folks not as generous as you. As far as I can tell, you and some others here are among the most sensible of largescale operators, in that you practice minimally toxic treatment and other intelligent management approaches. Anyway, I always pay attention to what you say.

    It seems a shame that there is so much pointless acrimony between the two camps, particularly since there are so many gray borderlands between the philosophies to be explored. I know I've learned plenty from those who treat, as well as those who don't, which I believe is the purpose of the forum.

    Ray

  11. #111
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    I don't care if anyone finds me credible. We are expanding on our views and sneering at each other openly without glazed eyes and fake smiles. It is what makes our time so different than before a venue such as this existed. So ask yourself of what your are crusading for when you attempt to strike down the opposition of another?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    As first year beekeepers, you and I have no credibility among those who've worked in the field for decades. All we can reasonably do is ask questions and put forward our theories (and the factual basis for those theories.) If we get combative about stuff we have no first hand experience with, it will only lead to people deciding we're idiots. It's much easier to dismiss the angry rantings of an idiot than the thoughtful questions of someone who is respectful.

    Your attitude is unlikely to convince anyone that you're right and they're wrong. When you lack experience and reputation, your only alternative is guile, and first among the commandments of the wily is to not offend the people you're trying to sell on your ideas.

    You sound like a smart guy who's on the right track, but lacks a grasp of human nature. Either that, or you're working for the miticide companies, here to convince people that the treatment free alternative is only practiced by people they wouldn't like. I kind of prefer the latter explanation because it appeals to my Machiavellian view of the world, but I could be wrong. Sometimes I overthink stuff.

    Anyway, if you search out Mark's posts, you'll see that he does a lot more than issue one-liners and indignation. I think he would agree that he has a somewhat argumentative nature, a common characteristic of beekeepers, but what I like about Mark's forum behavior is that he usually tries to understand what people are saying before he gets irritated.

    All things considered, I'd rather be a forum hero than a forum joke. You're at that fork in the road.

  12. #112
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiyolti View Post
    I don't care if anyone finds me credible.
    Well okay then. The industry shill theory is gaining credibility.

    The pen may be mightier than the sword, but only if the pen is wielded by an intelligent hand. Any fool can swing a sword.

    (I said that.)

  13. #113
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Well okay then. The industry shill theory is gaining credibility.

    The pen may be mightier than the sword, but only if the pen is wielded by an intelligent hand. Any fool can swing a sword.

    (I said that.)
    Congratulations! You have become the very thing you accuse me of.
    Now correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that was the worst thing I have said about anyone here. Take a minute and wrap your head around that one.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    I don't think it was the worst thing you've said here. Come back and read your posts tomorrow after you have calmed down, you may see what has alienated everyone.

    In particular I found your claim that a particular person hopes it all goes bad for you, to be a false assumption / accusation, confrontational, and obnoxious.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Jim, I've quadrupled my colony count, but since it's only been a few months, I can't claim anything at all yet. It might well turn out that I'm not smart enough to succeed at TF beekeeping.
    Straight up, from my reading of Beesource, it does not appear that succeeding at treatment free has much to do with being smart. I see people with little knowledge starting out, some making really bad mistakes along the way in terms of bee management, due to lack of knowledge and experience, but just not treating, and succeeding. No particular skill is involved. To what extent they succeed, varies, some do well hardly lose a hive, others lose quite a few but learn to keep up via splitting etc, others eventually lose all and give up.

    My conclusion is there is a fair bit of luck involved. Where somebody is, what their original source of bees is, etc. If all that falls into place, anyone can do it. Being profitable, is a different matter.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #115
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    It's not a theory.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Being profitable, is a different matter.

    Bingo.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    From what I understand there is a certain tip-over point where the numbers of bees make being Treatment Free very hard to do. What this point is, depends on a lot of different variables.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiyolti View Post
    I think the larger beekeepers have too much invested in treatments to admit they are making a mistake and change course. Not to mention the enormity of such a task.
    That's an interesting way of looking at it! From my perspective, larger (commercial) beekeepers have their living invested in their bees and to change course to the degree you advocate would most certainly result in a lot of these outfits going out of business. The task would be enormous!
    Regards, Barry

  19. #119
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    From what I understand there is a certain tip-over point where the numbers of bees make being Treatment Free very hard to do. What this point is, depends on a lot of different variables.
    That's probably right, but I wonder if that isn't partly because so few largescale operators have made the attempt. There's Dee Lusby, Kirk Webster, and a few others who seem to be on the verge of hive numbers that folks would accept as commercial. Maybe the techniques to succeed at treatment free on a large scale haven't yet been developed, or at least widely disseminated. The only really big operation I know of that is treatment free is BeeWeaver, and I think they are more oriented toward producing bees than honey.

    I would think that someone who has 500 hives must have to use different management practices than someone who has a few dozen, even if both beekeepers use treatments. It seems to be the case that most treatment free proponents have relatively small operations, but that might be because they're in a better position to take chances than folks who depend on bees for a living.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiyolti View Post
    Feelings need to be hurt, we need to speak out otherwise we get more of the same.
    Will yours get hurt if you're banned? I suggest an easing back on your tone.
    Regards, Barry

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