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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    What benefit is there for TF Beekeepers and Non-TF Beekeepers to exchange Posts w/ each other? I feel like much of this has been wasted time, yelling past the barn as my Mom might have said.

    Well eventually you'll need a source of clean wax.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    So, Mollison was discussing sustainable permaculture in Africa.

    I was also influenced to enter beekeeping by Kenyan Topbar beekeeping and sustainable agriculture. Small world.

    Although, I've since gone Lang for practical reasons.

    I know quite a few organic 'foodies' here in NYC.

    Perhaps some of the treatment folks just don't get where we're coming from?

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,195

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiyolti View Post
    >Oh my, what can I say, what can I say. Yes, you are right you don't have enough rings on your tree. Yet you believe you can see the whole picture as well as if not better than those who are mighty oaks to your sapling.

    I can tell by your presumptive attitude that you are a "put your head down and shut up" kind of person. A remnant of our collective faith based past. The fact is I am part of a generation who is questioning everything and and uncovering the economic reason for your actions. I don't believe I can change any persons mind. The goal is to have more people start out right so they can fill the gap created when you get tired of holding the line for the corporate side.
    I know Mark. It was his kindness and willingness to answer dumb questions that got me started in beekeeping. In the bee club he is a member of, and for which he goes to a lot of trouble, people feel free to admit that they don't treat. In my bee club, no one brings up the subject, for fear of serious ridicule. What does that tell you?

    Your attitude is disrespectful and immature. It's not a good way to win people over to your point of view. I was treated as an idiot on BeeSource, when I first got here. Because of my views on treatment, they thought I was another version of you, samples of which crop up on the site regularly, and usually fade away in a year or two. I'm on your side, but I wish you would learn some social skills, and realize that respectful discussion is a more effective way to go than lazy confrontational dispute.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,432

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Honestly, folks, I didn't mean for this to turn into a slapfight. I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible in the context of the larger community?

    Ray
    I don't think so. But if I recall the circumstances the Poster felt that their treatment may have been wasted because the coloniues that died out basically sent their mites over the frnce into his as they died.

    I do what I do and try not to look to closely across the fence.

    We had a good meeting last night Ray. Not a crowd but good conversation, questions and answers, exchanges of points of view. Set up a committee for a program in October on "Starting Out". Keep in touch.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    The trick to treatment free in my opinion is good genetics and knowing when to make splits. You are always raising the next generation for the next season.

    Here is the other thing, mostly aimed at people who use wild/survivor stock... if there are wild bees, one can assume they have formed some sort of genetic or social equilibrium with the mites or they would not be there in the first place. There was a period not too long ago when finding a wild hive was very hard, now they are everywhere in some locales. I use a lot of wild stock, and try not to disrupt them too much by using things they would not see in their tree - had I have left them there.

    It's just a different paradigm, and I do not see a lot of common ground between those who treat and those who don't. Just like some people go to McDonald's and others won't eat that sort of thing. In New Mexico, Treatment Free seems to be the norm, unless you are a large commercial operation.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,432

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Really? You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers? Me neither.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    My legitimate complaint of treated hives is when you can smell mothballs in their honey. A person should be strung up for something like that. Might not be a commonplace treatment but none the less one performed by those who think eradication is the key to success.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,432

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Someone just reminded me. "Find someone who is successful at what they do and follow them." That's what I do as much as I can. I have not been very impressed by the TF examples. That or they don't fit into how I am handling my bees migratorially and pollinationwise.

    Thanks dj.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    I agree, it is all about systems. You must find one that works for you, and more importantly, for your area. What works for me may not work for you, with different bees and environmental conditions. I would be lost if I lived in a region with SHB and truly freezing conditions.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,432

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    In this smorgasbord of life all I have of value to share w/ you is myself. If someone finds me distasteful pass me over and take nourishment from another vessel.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    492

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    >>> I was only concerned with one issue: is it fair and/or reasonable to call non-treaters irresponsible<<<<

    No. I don't think mite transfer is a genuine issue (as mites are everywhere, anyway). TF provides a reservoir of non-drug-resistant mites to repopulate commercial hives, so is useful, as I stated in my first post in this thread. DWV is universal as well, transfered on pollen, etc. Mites promote it within the hive. I don't know about the other virii, as they don't express as obviously.

    I think there may be genuine issue with AFB, however. TF tends to ignore the seriousness of AFB, or because of the enormous number of first-years involved simply doesn't recognize it. TF's resist sanitary response and has already decided against drugs, this provides an AFB vector. On the other hand, Bee-L was recently in a cat-fight about widely implemented post-infection anti-biotic treatment of AFB as an alternative to the sterile approach. It may be that AFB is being vectored by commercial onto the hobbyists, and not the other way around.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    I think that TFB is mostly about sustainable apiculture.

    Some of the treatment practices are simply unsustainable. While others, cross the line into a place I refuse go.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I know Mark. It was his kindness and willingness to answer dumb questions that got me started in beekeeping. In the bee club he is a member of, and for which he goes to a lot of trouble, people feel free to admit that they don't treat. In my bee club, no one brings up the subject, for fear of serious ridicule. What does that tell you?

    Your attitude is disrespectful and immature. It's not a good way to win people over to your point of view. I was treated as an idiot on BeeSource, when I first got here. Because of my views on treatment, they thought I was another version of you, samples of which crop up on the site regularly, and usually fade away in a year or two. I'm on your side, but I wish you would learn some social skills, and realize that respectful discussion is a more effective way to go than lazy confrontational dispute.
    Forum heros such as Mark tend to be the ones throwing daggers and offer nothing more than one liners and indignation. It is no surprise that he has other venues in which to do the same. I have never been one to stay quiet and put my head down as you do at "other" meetings. Feelings need to be hurt, we need to speak out otherwise we get more of the same. Unless you choose not to evolve/adapt, it's your decision.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Power to the people.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Leicester, United Kingdom
    Posts
    28

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    if your hive gets afb in the uk it gets burned.
    if you get afb/efb and don't report it you are breaking the law here.
    also we have inspections from the bee inspector to check hive health etc.

    as far as honey smelling of mothballs or tasting funny well the treatments come with instructions maybe they should read them before applying the treatment.
    we don't have shb yet

    funny i was looking at bee base the government website for bee pest control etc and the only afb outbreaks in the uk seem to be near honey processing plants handling imported honey. they leave the vats outside and bees clean the honey left in them and take afb home.

    i think people have a different attitude to treatment of bee pests in the uk.
    each to their own i guess.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nige.Coll View Post
    if your hive gets afb in the uk it gets burned.
    if you get afb/efb and don't report it you are breaking the law here.
    also we have inspections from the bee inspector to check hive health etc.

    as far as honey smelling of mothballs or tasting funny well the treatments come with instructions maybe they should read them before applying the treatment.
    we don't have shb yet

    funny i was looking at bee base the government website for bee pest control etc and the only afb outbreaks in the uk seem to be near honey processing plants handling imported honey. they leave the vats outside and bees clean the honey left in them and take afb home.

    i think people have a different attitude to treatment of bee pests in the uk.
    each to their own i guess.
    What where the instructions for the use of DDT? To bad nobody followed the guidelines for disbursement on that one.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    The entire U.S. Beeswax supply has become so completely contaminated by the very products that beekeepers are using to treat their colonies, that some scientists suggest that it's a contributing factor to colony decline.

    We don't need to go to DDT to see that we may be looking at yet another self inflicted catastrophe.

    So, maybe the 'official' complaint is really against treatments, and not the other way around.

    If you buy wax foundation, or even wax coated plastic, it's all contaminated at this point.

    That's one terrible legacy that we're faced with.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    The TF solution to AFB should be the same as the non-treatment. Burn the hive. EFB, that is a bit different. Just cage the queen and hopefully they will overcome it. If not, they don't need to be in the gene pool. Just my opinion. It is very hard to distinguish true EFB from a host of other bacteriological diseases - and even pollen poisoning, so burning is a bit extreme. IBDS and EFB are very hard to tell apart.

    I have a hive with a caged queen from IBDS while I type. I can see how it would not be a good option for industrialized beekeeping because of the time involved. Much more efficient for the profit margin to just toss on a medicine patty and be done with it.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,439

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Got ourselves a new internet hero here, 20 hives, hasn't spent a buck, maybe the new Ace.....

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    >The entire U.S. Beeswax supply has become so completely contaminated by the very products that beekeepers are using to treat their colonies, that some scientists suggest that it's a contributing factor to colony decline.

    We should force the big boys to make candles when they go under... Hand dipped as penance.

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