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I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

48K views 409 replies 44 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
In another thread, recently closed (due to acrimony, I suppose) an interesting contention was made. In short, the complaint was that treatment free beekeepers pose a risk to those who treat, because when the untreated hives collapse, they make it harder for nearby treaters to control mites and other pathogenic organisms.

The reason I don't understand this complaint is that it seems to ignore the evidence from the BeeInformed survey that indicates that treated hives collapse at similar rates to untreated. I could understand the complaint if treatment were able to prevent colony loss, but obviously, it doesn't. Even if you find the BeeInformed survey a dubious resource, just reading the news will provide plenty of examples of commercial beekeepers who treat and still lose large percentages of their colonies.

If collapsing colonies pose a threat to those with healthy hives, then logically, the risk would be far greater for those who don't treat, because they are so greatly outnumbered by those who do, and non-treaters also have to deal with a local genetic overload of less-resistant bees.

I'd like to see this discussed in a civil manner... and hope that is possible.
 
#36 ·
Of course there are legitimate TFBers out there who split to replace any losses while not resorting to treatments.

MDA splitter is one of the more widely known methodologies.

It doesn't rely on the premise of starting with resistant stock. It uses the basic management technique of brood breaks and multiple operations.

Half the operation is for production, the other half for increases/replacements.

But, you still don't use 'chemicals'.

JW, we are a MOSAIC of TFBers.

For instance, I also resort to probiotics.

I prefer the term 'chemical free' to TF anyhow. Although, I'm more like a 'food grade' type.

As long as I don't have to use PPE to put treatments in my colonies, I'm more than happy.

If I lose colonies, oops!, I guess I'll need to order new ones.

Sort of like the way I got the ones before.
 
#38 ·
I see a lot of generalizations going on Rhaldridge, I think this also leads to a lot of the bickering, everyone is an expert on what works for them but it's not universal. There are some TF successes, but look at how many bees they run and if they are migratory. How many treatment free beeks are there with 5000+ hives and are migratory? When you're making a living off bees it's tough to neglect treating and risk losing income if your hives come out of winter poorly.
 
#44 ·
Good points.

I think the stress of migratory beekeeping might be a major reason why some migratory beekeepers have such high losses in spite of treating. It might turn out that migratory beekeeping is not a sustainable practice, after all. In modern agriculture, I see a lot of stuff that appears to me to be unsustainable.

In the case of migratory beekeeping, I hope I'm wrong, because I know a lot of folks depend on the practice to make a decent living at a tough job. But change is the one constant, in farming even more than in most arenas of life.

Ray
 
#40 ·
R, Thanks for your essay. I *wish* the model of induced resistance from survivor stocks was a viable way forward for me. I continue to trial and test with wild swarms I collect, and they show no higher resistance to DWV than any other hive. Perhaps I am unfortunate in my location. DWV and Varroa would both coevolve for reduced virulence, but my trialing out-yard is half-way up a mountain with no commercials near-by. The "population background" for this area is going to feral for both Varroa, DWV and the Bees. Admittedly, 1000's of hives come into the county in December to rest up for the Almonds, but that is my landscape, and I don't think the December migratory bees are making many drone flights.

When I determine the hive has reached dangerous mite levels, I treat (with one or two of Formic/Oxalic/Sugar/Thymol) and move it down the mountain to a yard I manipulate. I also requeen obviously AHB and move the now non-feral hive out.

You complain about condescension. Curiously enough, the commercial keepers feel just as put upon by the religious zeal of treatment-free acolytes.

My main complaint about the TF "catechism" is the patently untrue statement that "the only way to get resistant bees is to "not treat". This formulation is repeated ad infinitum, but repeating does not make it true. What is true, is that selected breeding programs are able to develop resistant forms efficiently. Wild outcrossing is not a "selected breeding program", it may (truely) generate some local genotypes, but inefficiently. The inertia I see in the system implies that a very simple adaptation like in AHB -- constant swarming is going to replace refined forms in the land races. You already see this, and I suppose BeeWeaver are sending the genes all over the country.
 
#45 ·
My main complaint about the TF "catechism" is the patently untrue statement that "the only way to get resistant bees is to "not treat". This formulation is repeated ad infinitum, but repeating does not make it true. What is true, is that selected breeding programs are able to develop resistant forms efficiently. Wild outcrossing is not a "selected breeding program", it may (truely) generate some local genotypes, but inefficiently. The inertia I see in the system implies that a very simple adaptation like in AHB -- constant swarming is going to replace refined forms in the land races. You already see this, and I suppose BeeWeaver are sending the genes all over the country.
I've heard the catechism in a slightly different form: "The only way to get treatment free bees is to not treat." You may be paraphrasing a bit there.

I think you may be overestimating the effect of AHB genetics on managed populations. Take an example probably everybody has heard about: Dee Lusby. I've seen that video of her working her yards, and to me it's terrifying. Her bees may have some Africanized gene expression, but they are clearly not entirely subverted, because according to all the research I've seen, you couldn't get AHB to fill 3 deeps with such massive numbers of bees. They'd have long since swarmed.

You complain about condescension. Curiously enough, the commercial keepers feel just as put upon by the religious zeal of treatment-free acolytes.
I don't know why. I rarely see such raw dismissive contempt for commercial keepers in the bee journals. Do you? Maybe they are just frail sensitive flowers, but most of the ones I've had any contact with don't strike me that way.

My complaint isn't really about condescension, which is only annoying. It's about blinkered attitudes, which seems to be costing the profession dearly.

So what's your explanation for why bee scientists have found the various successful treatment free keepers to be unworthy of study?

Do you give any credence to the idea that the fairly soft treatments you are using might be adversely affecting hive biota?

http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/...crobiota-may-yield-clues-to-honey-bee-health/
 
#41 ·
"the only way to get resistant bees is to "not treat".

Well, at some point in the process, I suppose it's true. It makes sense with ferals. It would make sense if someone is testing for resistance for example.

I do know that DVE showed that 75%VSH will keep mite levels low enough to avoid colony loss.

Do you think that he treated to figure that one out? Nope, you can't treat for that kind of a test.
 
#42 ·
To simplistic WLC. Our own VSH breeding program has achieved 80%+ VSH, but treatment was an essential part of the program because the bees that were the original breeding stock some years back were around 20% VSH and would have succumbed to varroa.

If treatment as needed had not been part of the breeding program, the 80% VSH bees we have now would not have been produced.

So bond is not the only way, and is in fact a way that wastes good material.
 
#51 ·
It's another one of those theories that sounds good and gets repeated so often it becomes "fact".

I've been seeing an awful lot of them especially in the last few months, some of them far removed from reality. Evidence for them is hinted at, but never supplied.
 
#52 ·
Jim,
Your skepticism surprises me. Mites resistant to fluvalinate, coumaphos and amitraz have all been extensively reported and developed with predictable speed. I think this is what MB is referring to, and his own conversion to TF came during the first episode of amitraz resistance if I recall his journal.
Under application was a co-factor in resistance development. The resistance doesn't persist without continuing exposure (as it imposes a metabolic cost on the mite expressing it). I don't believe resistance to the organic acids have been reported, but anytime minimal effective doses are used, resistance develops more easily.

Annecdotally, many California commercial operations are still doping with "Taktic" - which they must be rustling out of Mexico or Canada as its off the market. The frequency of the doping application and concentration is increasing (per my conversations with operators)- sure sign that Taktic's efficacy is wearing off. I've seen both oil soaks with Taktic and backback spraying of frames using a water/Amitraz mix applied.
 
#53 ·
That's a shame about the abuse of Taktic as it means the legal product (Apivar) will eventually not work.

re the supermite discussion, the problem I have with this argument is with the way it is presented. I think everybody realises mites are becoming immune to some of the treatments, that is accepted fact.

But the way the argument is worded often goes along the lines of "breeding stronger and stronger mites". Which to the gullible, means the mites are more deadly against bees than they used to be. Not the truth, in fact the reverse is more likely as the mites have to expend something to maintain the resistance.

Just so often, we see theories expressed, with a slight wording twist or little misconception somewhere, that gives the wrong idea. Often unintentional by the person who says it. So we end up with people being convinced of something that is not the case, while believing that science is on their side.
 
#54 ·
JWC: That there is resistance to many chemical treatments is undeniable, it is what led me away from the products you listed years ago. That there are many effective treatments and ipm strategies that have been in use for years with no signs of resistance is equally true. My point is that bees may well be developing a resistance to mites at least as fast as the mites are developing a resistance to treatments and that the theory of the uncontrollable "super mite" is just, just that, a theory. Mostly, though, I am relating my personal experience with varroa and stand by my statement that varroa dosent continue to have the impact on our bees that they had 25 years ago. Isnt it just as logical to assume that this super mite has come and then just as quickly killed itself off? Clearly, though, the battle is an ongoing one but my bet is that the beekeeper is more tenacious than the mite.
 
#55 · (Edited)
Well, it's easy to order up VSH queens, so getting resistant bees isn't a problem.

I do agree with Jim that viruses like DWV are the real concern. It has spilled-over into bumble bees. And, DWV bees are widespread and easy to notice.

As for the Korea vs Japan haplotype of Varroa. There is evidence for mite attenuation in bees. As for virus attenuation, Martin has demonstrated that single DWV strains do dominate mites/bees in the Hawaii study.

So, I don't think that it's far fetched to say that treatments can be an impediment to developing attenuated mites/viruses locally.

It took three years for a single strain of DWV to dominate colonies locally in Hawaii, for example, according to the study.

In short, there is enough science to back up MB's position.
 
#56 ·
Mike Bispham? Which position? Last posts we were talking about supermites, you change the subject to DWV and say there is science to back MB position. Do you mean your own position?

Re bumblebees, nobody knows how long they have has DWV. Could be thousands of years and passed unnoticed. As it passed largely unnoticed in honeybees till the advent of varroa mites.
 
#58 ·
>Its been about 25 years since varroa first impacted the US. Is their any evidence that these super mites have evolved?

Nothing is evolving at any rate that affects anything. However there is selective pressure and certainly the mites have built resistance to the treatments and they have reproduced fast enough to still be a problem despite the treatments. Do we really want to continue to put selective pressure in that direction?

>Wouldnt a mite that breeds fast enough to overcome treatments serve to hasten its own demise?

It only has to reproduce faster in order to still succeed with treatments. I has to reproduce slower in order to still succeed without treatments.

>My experience is that varroa is far easier to control now than when it first affected our operation.

I would say the bees are getting resistance, not because of treatments, but because of feral bees that are not getting treatments...

>My main complaint about the TF "catechism" is the patently untrue statement that "the only way to get resistant bees is to "not treat".

Tell me how you know your bees can survive without treatments if you are treating. How would you select for bees that can survive without treatments? I need bees that don't have health issues at all. Not just bees that can survive mites, but bees that can survive winter, nosema, afb, efb, chalkbrood, sacbrood, stonebrood, wax moths and small hive beetles and still be gentle and productive. What combination of traits is that? How do I select for it if I treat?
 
#61 ·
I need bees that don't have health issues at all. Not just bees that can survive mites, but bees that can survive winter, nosema, afb, efb, chalkbrood, sacbrood, stonebrood, wax moths and small hive beetles and still be gentle and productive. What combination of traits is that? How do I select for it if I treat?
Selective breeding quantifies the expression of a "trait", and multi-factor selection happens all the time in breeding programs. All the laundry list of challenges you list have resistance that is heritable and quantifiable. There are straightforward weighting statistics to generate a selection index, and colonies with the highest selection index would be grafted against drone population with complementary constellation of traits.

Bees are unique in having super-organism vigor, that is because they are made up of daughters of many fathers, the community composition of traits also contributes to fitness. This allows the breeder to mix and match fathers in the correct proportion (a la Buckfast).

These lineages are fragile, in that "survivability" is always relative, and simple entropy and wild out-crossing implies they will not arise through random events. My core complaint about "Bond" programs is how enormously wasteful they are. In a backyard setting, and in my local area, they cannot work because "survivor stock" has been tested and shows no greater health than any other bee.
 
#59 ·
Back to the thread topic. I think the complaint stems from the knowledge that treatment free beekeeping is sustainable with little to no cost to a beekeeper who is starting fresh and drawing their own clean comb. I think the larger beekeepers have too much invested in treatments to admit they are making a mistake and change course. Not to mention the enormity of such a task. Another point is how long these beekeepers have been preaching to the use of pesticides in the hive to anyone who will listen. It takes a lot of salt to admit foolishness, even more when the foolishness was indoctrinated. Teachers tend to suffer from this more than others.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Commercial beekeepers have a lot more invested in their equipment and livestock than they do in anything else. They depend on their investments to support their family. Something no Small Scale Beekeeper does.

Have you ever had 600 colonies die from not treating? I have. Six or 7 years ago I had 732 colonies in May and by March had 100. So what was the foolish thing I did? Go back to splitting strong hives, making increase, buying more bees, and treating? Investing in my bees so I could pay my bills? What?

Had I another means of surviving/paying bills in other ways and I was good at grafting and raising queens maybe I would have done that but that was not the situation I had in front of me. I am not independently well off outside of my Beekeeping Operation. We are mutually dependent.

I don't preach pesticide use. I simply do it. I had more colonies of bees this Summer than I did last year. Positive improvement to me. If anyone is preaching here it is folks who critisize others for being foolish. Walk a mile in my shoes and then show me how to do what I do w/out doing what I do. Show me the error of my ways, don't just sit there saying something should be done a certain way w/out having done it.

Commercials and Small Scalers are not Machintoshes and Granny Smiths they are Jonathans and Navels.

You have a certain luxury which I do not have. You are not as invested in your bees as I am, as dependent on them as I am. You are newer to this vocation than I am. So you have a certain perspective not available to me. I can't see it for all of the experience I have had clouding my view. You are younger than I, somewhat, living under different circumstances than I am and than I have. I see these as your luxuries which allow you to see things as you do and to seem (maybe it isn't so) to look down on others who do things the way they do for reasons both common to many others and highly personal.

I know Sam Comfort somewhat, he texted me about the apple crop he knows my bees pollinated a cpl evenings ago, and I enjoy Sam's attitude and the way he expresses himself to those who don't necessarily want to hear it. I don't know if you know who Sam is or what his experiences have been, but, at least he has spent some time working in the field, working for Dave Mendes for one and Michael Palmer (I believe) and others and has his own operation made up of all TBHs, enough that he considers himself commercial. Have you done anything like that?
 
#63 ·
>>>>Mostly, though, I am relating my personal experience with varroa and stand by my statement that varroa dosent continue to have the impact on our bees that they had 25 years ago. <<<<
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification. I am also seeing this pattern of reduced deadliness. I lost colonies, and exited beekeeping in 90-92. The mites don't seem to come on as strong, and the DWV seems a little less pervasive after the mites develop. The research on DWV indicates that it is already hypovirulent, so it may be selecting itself for better host survival. A virus (generation time in hours), a mite (generation time in 15 days) are going to move faster in genotype selection than a long-lived social colony.

All the bee trees are occupied, my trap hives fill in June with wild swarms. We have enormous open comb colonies living under tree limbs and on rock overhangs and these will persist for several years instead of blinking out in the first winter.

It would be nice if the TF>T debate became irrelevant to non-migratory keepers as the bee and parasites converge. However, I don't think backyard TF practices will speed up (or slow down) this conversion -- for all the reasons I have been railing about.

Self-pollinating Almonds have left trials, and "Independence" was planted on upwards of 100,000 acres this year. I wonder how the "migratory" commercial model is going to survive when pollination contracts drop back to sub-economic prices on collapsing demand. We are definitely in a gold-rush bubble right now in Ca.
 
#64 · (Edited)
>Commercial beekeepers have a lot more invested in their equipment and livestock than they do in anything else. They depend on their investments to support their family. Something no Small Scale Beekeeper does.

When I say the large outfits have too much invested I am not merely speaking of "capital". Emotions are playing a huge role here and treatment free beekeeping is showing that simple logic should have been followed when you asked yourself, "why am I dosing my insects with insecticide?" It doesn't matter if the treatment free keeper refrains from bad mouthing, Their success is insult enough. I see this type of mentality everywhere in our culture today.
You are right that I have the luxury of starting out treatment free in beekeeping and you have gleefully lumped me into the pile of beekeepers who think of them as pets. The truth is my first hive was a cutout in April and I was grafting queens in June, more cutouts and splits followed and I now have close to 20 hives in 2 separate yards. I have already surpassed my goal for this year and I haven't spent a single dollar. I get the feeling the treatment crowd wishes me the worst of luck, too bad it was hard work that got me here.
I think it is great that Sam has experience on large scale operations. It is his and others experience which make it possible for us new kids to skip that whole nightmare.
 
#65 · (Edited)
You assume incorrectly. I wish you ever continuing success. Let me know how things are going when you reach the 500 colony count w/ your, as you call them, "pets". Not a word I used. Perception is not always reality.

Do you recognize your own emotional investment?

At our Bee Group meeting last night one of our members reminded me that he had lost 50% of his hives this Winter. He does not use treatments. What would you advise he do going forward?

Let us know how many of yours did not die over Winter before you start making increase next Spring.
 
#66 ·
>All the bee trees are occupied, my trap hives fill in June with wild swarms. We have enormous open comb colonies living under tree limbs and on rock overhangs and these will persist for several years instead of blinking out in the first winter.

This is largely due to backyard beekeepers letting their colonies swarm, it is getting popular if you haven't noticed.
 
#67 ·
What do you tell someone (a TFer) who lost 1/2 their colonies overwinter?

Keep splitting. Add new genetics by using different mated queens from 'resistant' stock.

And, most importantly, add probiotics to syrup. It'll increase honey and wax production by double digit %ages. That should take the edge off of the losses somewhat. Probiotics can also improve the overall health of colonies, which might just help bring losses down to a manageable level.

There's a lot of work being done on probiotics. It's a 'food grade' supplement. You could make your own with some syrup, milk, and honey (from anywhere in the world).

It certainly has more appeal than some of the treatments being discussed.
 
#68 · (Edited)
>At our Bee Group meeting last night one of our members reminded me that he had lost 50% of his hives this Winter. He does not use treatments. What would you advise he do going forward?

Move to a more temperate climate:D I tend not to give advice, I haven't enough rings on my tree yet.
Back to the topic of this thread, when I hear that the commercial side is blaming infestation on treatment free I can see where that will go... Regulations and more control.

>You assume incorrectly. I wish you ever continuing success. Let me know how things are going when you reach the 500 colony count w/ your, as you call them, "pets". Not a word I used. Perception is not always reality.

You assume that because I am a first year beekeeper that I am unable to see the whole picture. You assume I would be foolish enough to put all my eggs in one basket and spend ALL of my time on 500 hives. That to me sounds like a miserable existence. But just like cattle, people keep more than they can handle and hold their hand out when things don't work out.
 
#70 ·
>You assume incorrectly. I wish you ever continuing success. Let me know how things are going when you reach the 500 colony count w/ your, as you call them, "pets". Not a word I used. Perception is not always reality.

You assume that because I am a first year beekeeper that I am unable to see the whole picture. You assume I would be foolish enough to put all my eggs in one basket and spend ALL of my time on 500 hives. That to me sounds like a miserable existence. But just like cattle, people keep more than they can handle and hold their hand out when things don't work out.
Oh my, what can I say, what can I say. Yes, you are right you don't have enough rings on your tree. Yet you believe you can see the whole picture as well as if not better than those who are mighty oaks to your sapling.

Be kind to those you encounter on your path upthe mountain. They will be there on your way down.

I know the draw backs of not listening to those one can't relate to, but I get tired more easily as time goes by, so I won't see ya.

Back in 1988 or so a friend long in the bee business, and still at it today, said of tracheal and varroa, "Yeah, we've seen this before. It'll be okay. We'll get by." Meaning that in the long view of beekeeping our current situation may not be ideal, but we will look back on this one day as we look back on the years of AFB Epidemic, Isle of Wight, and other eras. If folks just stick it oit.
 
#73 ·
>Oh my, what can I say, what can I say. Yes, you are right you don't have enough rings on your tree. Yet you believe you can see the whole picture as well as if not better than those who are mighty oaks to your sapling.

I can tell by your presumptive attitude that you are a "put your head down and shut up" kind of person. A remnant of our collective faith based past. The fact is I am part of a generation who is questioning everything and and uncovering the economic reason for your actions. I don't believe I can change any persons mind. The goal is to have more people start out right so they can fill the gap created when you get tired of holding the line for the corporate side.
 
#83 ·
I know Mark. It was his kindness and willingness to answer dumb questions that got me started in beekeeping. In the bee club he is a member of, and for which he goes to a lot of trouble, people feel free to admit that they don't treat. In my bee club, no one brings up the subject, for fear of serious ridicule. What does that tell you?

Your attitude is disrespectful and immature. It's not a good way to win people over to your point of view. I was treated as an idiot on BeeSource, when I first got here. Because of my views on treatment, they thought I was another version of you, samples of which crop up on the site regularly, and usually fade away in a year or two. I'm on your side, but I wish you would learn some social skills, and realize that respectful discussion is a more effective way to go than lazy confrontational dispute.
 
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