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  1. #201
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    May 2013
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    Halfway, Oregon, USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    If people want to treat their hives with essential oils... I'd personally be OK with that. As someone who also want to produce a TF breeding line, it makes sense for me to balance the industry by making a radical stance on the far side of the spectrum. It also more fun over here!! You get to make provocative statements to conventional wisdom...

    As for the specific use of Thymol, or perhaps a home distilled oil, I do not know I can qualify the effect on medicinal process of the bees. Except that it sounds like I would treat with ess. oil when I want to be on the propolis flow? Late summer/fall... It's also a principality thing... I have trouble believing that I am producing the highest quality product when I know the bees cannot thrive without intervention. Of course, it goes both ways, it would be a moot point if I allowed my hives to spiral into collapse every other year. I have not personally found that to be the case.

  2. #202
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I don't include Dee in this group for obvious issues that surround her bee genetics. I wouldn't include Weaver either as they are a queen/bee producer, not honey/pollination.

    .
    And a large part of the remainder of the TF Commercials appear to be people who live a little too "Hand to Mouth", or perhaps I should say "Natural".

    Show me a TF Commercial who lives a middle-class existence. You know... wife, kids in college, car payments, mortgage.... The established nonTF commercials I know live relatively main stream lifestyles..... except for being on the road so much.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  3. #203
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    May 2013
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    BOO on the consumer lifestyle...

  4. #204
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    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I figured I'd have to eventually respond again to my comment. When one stacks up the commercial beekeepers and divides them into two groups (TF & T), we have a speck on one side and pretty much the whole mountain on the other. I don't include Dee in this group for obvious issues that surround her bee genetics. I wouldn't include Weaver either as they are a queen/bee producer, not honey/pollination.

    Point is, if and when we see some real numbers on the TF side, I'll start giving some weight to the guys like Pipiyolti that come on here and throw their verbal stones.
    Well, if he was a shill for the miticide industry... mission accomplished.

    The way science works, you evolve a hypothesis and test it. If the results support your hypothesis 999 times out of a thousand, but just once you get results that contradict that hypothesis, then either there was an error in the experimental procedure, or there's something wrong with the hypothesis. Then it's head-scratching time.

    The debate is usually framed in these terms: if you don't treat, you can't make money with your bees. There are folks making money with untreated bees, so that theory is down the drain, even if only a few are doing it.

    You could have said the same thing about organic farming-- only a few are doing it, only a tiny percentage of our national acreage is devoted to organic crops. 40 years ago, you'd have had trouble finding any organic farmers, and now it's a growing segment of the market.

  5. #205
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    My hypothesis is that if there was money in not treating, all the commercial beekeepers would be doing it.

    I've spent years reading Beesource and eventually signed up. One of the things that has been constant is a small but ever changing group of entry level treatment free beekeepers telling commercial beekeepers how they should be doing their jobs. The example in this thread was just one of many, who believe they know better and the "opposition" to them are just mindless old farts. I've even seen one of them offer to run a commercial guys outfit, the way it should be run.

    The other constant, is that none of these people have ever gone on themselves to be successful commercial beekeepers, despite some of them saying that is their goal.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #206
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,420

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post
    If people want to treat their hives with essential oils... I'd personally be OK with that. As someone who also want to produce a TF breeding line, it makes sense for me to balance the industry by making a radical stance on the far side of the spectrum. It also more fun over here!! You get to make provocative statements to conventional wisdom...

    As for the specific use of Thymol, or perhaps a home distilled oil, I do not know I can qualify the effect on medicinal process of the bees. Except that it sounds like I would treat with ess. oil when I want to be on the propolis flow? Late summer/fall... It's also a principality thing... I have trouble believing that I am producing the highest quality product when I know the bees cannot thrive without intervention. Of course, it goes both ways, it would be a moot point if I allowed my hives to spiral into collapse every other year. I have not personally found that to be the case.
    "propolis flow"?

    "It's also a principality thing." Huh? I don't understand.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  7. #207
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post
    BOO on the consumer lifestyle...
    Oh, you radical. ha,ha I bet we are closer to each other lifestylewise than you might think. Except I don'y have any horses anymore.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  8. #208
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    I think he'd be talking about pre winter when the bees start gumming everything up with propolis.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #209
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post
    If people want to treat their hives with essential oils... I'd personally be OK with that. As someone who also want to produce a TF breeding line, it makes sense for me to balance the industry by making a radical stance on the far side of the spectrum. It also more fun over here!! You get to make provocative statements to conventional wisdom...
    .
    Would you recommend using a little cannabis in your smoker? As long as it was naturally grown Cannabis.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  10. #210
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,681

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post
    BOO on the consumer lifestyle...
    Oh come on. There has to be some standard. I totally agree with Herb. Let's compare apples to apples.
    Regards, Barry

  11. #211
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Could you use similar types of bees for commercial pollination?

    I don't see why not.
    I can sure see a reason why not. I'm sure growers and other beekeepers would not put up with the aggressive behavior I've experienced with Dee's bees.
    Regards, Barry

  12. #212
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    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I see D. Semple already beat me to it, but I think this is the big difference. Of course we can debate what "profitable" is, but I have yet to see a TF beekeeper make their sole living from their bees.
    Really???? Been doing so since 2009

  13. #213
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Pollination?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #214
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    That's great! I'm still using one hand to keep track of all you TF commercial.
    Got kids Tim? Live in something besides a double wide? You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice.
    Regards, Barry

  15. #215
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    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    That's great! I'm still using one hand to keep track of all you TF commercial.
    Got kids Tim? Live in something besides a double wide? You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice.
    No kids that I know of. No debt, all properties paid in full. I'm not going back to the $28hr middle class job....

  16. #216
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    May 2013
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    Halfway, Oregon, USA
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Excuse me, I certainly misused the word 'principality'. Sometimes I just get carried away with the rhythm of the words. Also, Oldtimer's got it, 'propolis flow' refers to the time of year when the bees really stick to it. And not, that I really care, but I identify with female pronouns

    The idea I am trying to convey is, 'the principle of the matter'. Are my bees producing the most vital product they can while I am medicating them?

    Also I cannot see a correlation between lifestyle and the ecological imperative of TFB. Did it occur to anyone that maybe, (please allow me a broad generalization) that people who value TFB might have different lifestyle values?? That does not in anyway invalidate the effectiveness of TFB.

    Also, bees do not have cannabinoid receptors... so I hear.

  17. #217
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Isn't the U.S. the only country that has migratory pollinators on such a large scale?

    It's kind of a local thing.

    Regardless, I can see how a stationary Honey producer can kick some serious margin in the right part of the country.

    I'm not going for the "Must Be Migratory" condition on TFBers.

    Besides, those guys get bees from wherever to meet their contracts.

    It's factory, not artisan.

    That's apples and oranges.

  18. #218
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel-Rah View Post
    Also, bees do not have cannabinoid receptors... so I hear.
    Who is worried about the beeees........
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  19. #219
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Lest we forget this past winter's California Almond Pollination drama.

    They were getting bees by any and all means.

    It was about quantity, not quality.

    Giving them resistant stock would be a complete waste.

  20. #220
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    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    [QUOTE=Barry;993434]That's great! I'm still using one hand to keep track of all you TF commercial.
    Got kids Tim? Live in something besides a double wide? You guys will have to convince me you're making a middle class living before I take notice.[/QUOTE

    The honey in my 3rd deep boxes alone is worth more than full year's worth of union scale...
    But I like my TF/SF bees.....

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