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  1. #401
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,099

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    What's that about? Or do I want to know?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  2. #402
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    brownwood, TX, USA
    Posts
    861

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Is there a place in the world where varroa mites and bees live in a "balanced" environment? Like, where did the varroa mite originate, and have the bees in that location been wiped out, or did they adjust and learn how to survive the mites?

    I live in fire ant country, and to make an analogy, we have been poisoning fire ants for decades. The poisons used keep changing to meet the adaptations in the ants biological changes. Regardless of how well the toxins work, each toxin is only a temporary fix. We're making stronger ants. My limited biology, and I do stress limited, reminds me that ants and bees are both hymenopteran.

  3. #403
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,785

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Someone asked:

    Well, perhaps the question becomes, 'Why do commercial pollinators still treat if they can use resistant stock for pollination?"

    'cuz the "resistant stock"(read Minn. Hygienic) is mean, lazy, builds slow, and does not make as good a honey crop as say a Cordovan or Strachen NWC. By using a more productive bee and slowly tapering treatments(from hard to soft, or otherwise), a commercial person can maintain bee performance at all times, and still arrive at the same goal as a TF person, but without the beginning losses. It is all about the "area under the curve".

    Crazy Roland

  4. #404
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,099

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy shooter View Post
    Is there a place in the world where varroa mites and bees live in a "balanced" environment? Like, where did the varroa mite originate, and have the bees in that location been wiped out, or did they adjust and learn how to survive the mites?
    Yes, Southeast Asia on apis dorsata and apis cerana I believe. The story as I understand it is that years ago someone took apis mellifera to SE Asia, the varroa took them as hosts, some infested hives were brought to the Weatern World from there. Roughly speaking, that's the story. Plenty more detail out there I'm sure.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  5. #405
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Someone asked:

    Well, perhaps the question becomes, 'Why do commercial pollinators still treat if they can use resistant stock for pollination?"

    'cuz the "resistant stock"(read Minn. Hygienic) is mean, lazy, builds slow, and does not make as good a honey crop as say a Cordovan or Strachen NWC. By using a more productive bee and slowly tapering treatments(from hard to soft, or otherwise), a commercial person can maintain bee performance at all times, and still arrive at the same goal as a TF person, but without the beginning losses. It is all about the "area under the curve".

    Crazy Roland
    I don't have mean bees, most of my FB pics I'm wearing a tank top and white Dockers. Mite counts averages 1.1-3

  6. #406
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Tim:

    Your bees are derived from the 'hybrid swarm'. That's the scientific term for the U.S. feral population.

    BeeWeaver, for example, mates their queens with the hybrid swarm to get their resistant stock.

    The hygienic bees are however a domestic line of bees. Although the study I referred to showed that VSH are viable for migratory pollination, they do have 'baggage' of their own.

  7. #407
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,576

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Depending on how you test and when you test mite numbers will vary widely. Anything over 1% in the spring when the hive is full of brood is, in my opinion, unacceptably high. Anything under 3% in September is very good. We did 1/2 cup mite checks on 50 potential breeders this spring and found a grand total of 4 mites. I found that gratifying but hardly definitive evidence that mites won't be a problem for us this summer. Interestingly enough our late summer mite numbers are the lowest I have seen since first encountering varroa in the early 1990's. Encouraging for sure but not enough to make me ever rest easy.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,772

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    great news jim! from what i can gather reading bee-l some of the folks out west are seeing higher numbers this year than last year.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #409
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Depending on how you test and when you test mite numbers will vary widely. Anything over 1% in the spring when the hive is full of brood is, in my opinion, unacceptably high. Anything under 3% in September is very good. We did 1/2 cup mite checks on 50 potential breeders this spring and found a grand total of 4 mites. I found that gratifying but hardly definitive evidence that mites won't be a problem for us this summer. Interestingly enough our late summer mite numbers are the lowest I have seen since first encountering varroa in the early 1990's. Encouraging for sure but not enough to make me ever rest easy.
    Correct on timing Jim... That's the range I'm seeing spring to Oct. I'm testing multi-year survivors. Not new splits or overwintered once.

  10. #410
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

    Nosema levels 0.0 million on USDA tests past 3 years. I won't get this years back till next year. DWV+ everything else negative. I'm not seeing Dwv bees as much anymore.

    SHB different story. But haven't seen as many this year vs previous.

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