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  1. #1
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    Default What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Many hives around the world are similar in form and function to Langstroth hives with Hoffman frames. What defines Langstroth? What makes a Lang a Lang?

    They don't have anything special or unique except specific measurements. Am I correct?

    Is it the width, length, number of frames, size of frames, combination of factors?

    Tell me what you think.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Inside, length, width, movable frames, with proper bee space. A standardized hive. cchoganjr

  3. #3
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Since (as I understand it) Langstroth originated the idea of bee space and invented movable frames I would think that any hive that uses those elements would be a Langstroth hive even if it isn't the same size as what we use in the U.S.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    It doesn't really matter what we think. The Langstroth Hive is a ten-frame, removable frame hive of the dimensions established by Langstroth. The interior consists of rectangular, suspended, moveable frames that established the bee space we're familiar with. The boxes are of a uniform size (length and width) capable of being stacked one upon another. Variations enter in with extracting supers of Illinois, Medium, or Shallow depth. cf: The Hive and the Honey Bee and The ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  5. #5
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    The Langstroth Hive is a ten-frame, removable frame hive of the dimensions established by Langstroth.
    The only unique part is the measurements.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    The interior consists of rectangular, suspended, moveable frames that established the bee space we're familiar with.
    Nothing unique here.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    The boxes are of a uniform size (length and width) capable of being stacked one upon another.
    Nor here.

    So it's the measurements which make a Langstroth a Langstroth. How many of those measurements do I have to mess with before I don't have a Langstroth hive any more?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Langstroth didn't develop what we call the Langstroth hive. The major woodenware companies don't call what they sell a "Langstroth" hive, only beekeepers do. Grab your Dadant catalog and look at the inside cover where they describe beehive components..They call it the "Modern Beehive", Langstroth isn't even mentioned in the description.

    Langstroth basically took a Champagne shipping crate, made some removable frames and stuck them in it and then put some bees in it and patented the whole deal. This is why a deep frame fits perfectly inside a wooden wine box today Medium and Illinois supers aren't part of the lang hive either, they are Borrowed from the Dadant hive. Basically what we use today is a hybrid of multiple people's ideas.

    Solomon:
    If you are interested I can email you langstroth's Patent. It is a good read for a historical perspective.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Does that exclude all the British variations with removable frames and rectangular supers? British National, British Commercial, Smith, WBC (William Broughton Carr), Dartington Long Deep, and Beehaus
    americasbeekeeper.com
    beekeeper@americasbeekeeper.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericasBeekeeper View Post
    Does that exclude all the British variations with removable frames and rectangular supers? British National, British Commercial, Smith, WBC (William Broughton Carr), Dartington Long Deep, and Beehaus
    You forgot the Rose OSB and the 14x12 hive
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Many hives around the world are similar in form and function to Langstroth hives with Hoffman frames. What defines Langstroth? What makes a Lang a Lang?

    They don't have anything special or unique except specific measurements. Am I correct?

    Is it the width, length, number of frames, size of frames, combination of factors?

    Tell me what you think.
    Removable frames and beespace.
    "Dude! Don't over think this! We're just cookin' hot dogs here...". Mark Berninghausen

  10. #10
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    correct bee space results in removable frames so I would say beespace reguardless of the size of the hive.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    But most hives have removable frames and bee space.

    Do we only use Langstroth because we have other options like Warre and top bar?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    So why distinguiish between foundationless and Warre'?
    americasbeekeeper.com
    beekeeper@americasbeekeeper.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Upon further review, we're not using Langstroth hives at all.

    http://parkerfarms.biz/documents/lan...s%20patent.pdf

    Solved that, thanks Brad.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    A real Warre' hive frames are not removable. The Real langstroth hive was foundationless... He described melting wax and dribbling it on the top bars as a guide for the bees to draw comb from.

    No Problem Solomon: I couldn't ever figure out how to link the PDF to the forum.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    maybe conventional and non-conventional hives can both use langstroth technology.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Langstroth discovered the bee space, others copied it. Dadant doesn't call the Langstroth hive such because early on, CP Dadant developed his own concept, called the Dadant hive, larger than the Langstroth.
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  17. #17
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Actually, he didn't. But he did innovate it into the sorts of hives we have today.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    If you look at the dimensions of what C.C. Miller and G.M. Doolittle were making they are calling them Langstroths, but they are a shorter top bar than we have and Miller was using eight frame boxes. I would say as the term is currently used, it's anything that takes a standard 19" top bar frame of various depths (Langstroth only had deeps and shallows) and comes in various widths from 2 frames to 12 frames. (hives have always been available in 8 frame and 10 frame configurations as they still are today).

    "The length of the top-bar is 18-5/8 inches, and 7/8 x 9/16 is rabbeted out of each end to receive the endbar."--C.C. Miller, 50 years among the bees

    This is 3/8" shorter than a standard frame today.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #19
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    Langstroth discovered the bee space, others copied it. Dadant doesn't call the Langstroth hive such because early on, CP Dadant developed his own concept, called the Dadant hive, larger than the Langstroth.
    Actually Francis Huber was working with bee space in the 1780s when he developed his leafbook hive. The way the hive opened if he violated beespace he would not be able to get into it... He didn't call it "beespace" though. Naming it is what Langstroth is credited with.

    Many people were making hives with removable frames about the same time as Langstroth... Langstroth was the first to patent the idea. It is believed that a removable frame was not what his goal was though. He was actually trying to block waxmoths from getting into the comb which is why he put solid endbars on his top bars. The frame being removable from the hive was a secondary benefit.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: What Defines a Langstroth Hive?

    Upon further review, we're not using Langstroth hives at all. -Solomon Parker
    I hear the term used a lot. It makes sense to me, it fits, I immediately conjure up a mental image of a "Langstroth hive," no matter whether it follows Langstroth's patent to a "t" or not, and it is commonly used. Why sweat the details of just how far something must go before it is or isn't a "Langstroth hive?"

    If we don't use the term "Langstroth hive," what term should we use to designate the common style of hives available in 8- or 10-frame widths or some other variant of frame numbers with similar sorts of proportions and build styles? All of the major manufacturers build to similar specifications right now, most other beekeepers do as well, and the style is overwhelmingly used throughout the industry.

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