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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    It also my opinion, and we all have one, is that all of this treatment/treatment free discourse is wasted. Each side is entrenched and has no intention of giving ground, therefore we should confine ourselves to giving to other beekeepers what advice we can about practical beekeeping.
    And yet the insults keep flying . . . (not from you AR, obviously, I agree with your statement)

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Nearly all mutations in bees or for that matter other living creatures are "bad". Yes I accept that "bad" is subjective. Let's say, worse adapted to their environment than they were previously.

    Many mutations, and for that matter, additions, simply end up as junk DNA (the majority of our own DNA is junk DNA). Some mutations go on to be the cause of various inheritable conditions and diseases. Other mutations may be relatively benign but you'd rather not have them, such as being at a higher risk of getting breast cancer. A tiny percentage of mutations are beneficial.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    So, are you saying we have deteriorated to our current condition?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  4. #84
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    So, are you saying we have deteriorated to our current condition?
    On the surface it would appear so. Indeed, if all mutations were good, we would be making pilgrimages to Chernobyl to expose ourselves to this wonderful prospect. More likely though, the Chernobyl induced mutation would involve some deformity, or cancer, or worse.

    Joking aside though, it's more complex than that. negative mutations that would cause something like early infant death, or an ugly deformity, tend to be weeded out. The genetic mutation that caused people not to have black skins, was not fatal, but likely encouraged those of us with it, to leave Africa.

    That rare thing, a mutation that by sheer luck actually makes an improvement, will give the owner of it an advantage so in theory is more likely to be retained, and even spread, in the population.

    Now though, a new anomaly has been introduced. Like varroa to honeybees, we have to humans, the welfare state. This alters what has always been the norm, ie, survival of the fittest, and replaces it with the reverse, ie paying those to stupid to support themselves, to breed. Combine this with modern health care, and I am sure that we are superior beings, to what our descendants will be in a few hundred years.

    I'll just throw in that I'm not expressing any political views or judging anyone. Just, expressing what I believe will be a cause and effect outcome, based on Darwinian theory. Not that I fully swallow every evolutionary theory in full, either.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-17-2013 at 05:18 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    (I'm not referring to long lasting contamination effects to wax or the bees themselves).
    Spit it out honey what are you referring to? I said "if" I assume nothing.

    Hey welcome back Solomon haven't heard your comments in a while. Have you graduated yet? I want to send you a post card.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    Even humans have significant levels of many toxins, including the chemical they use for fire retardant products in breast milk.
    Lauri, I only take milk directly from the breast, no fire retardants, although it does set my gonads on fire.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    There are plenty of treatments that don't involve chemicals that have long lasting contamination effects to the equipment (I'm not referring to long lasting contamination effects to wax or the bees themselves).
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Spit it out honey what are you referring to?
    Sorry, that sentence should have said:

    "There are plenty of treatments that don't involve chemicals and don't have long lasting contamination effects to the equipment (I'm not referring to long lasting contamination effects to wax or the bees themselves)."

    Other than correcting my sentence, I'm not referring to anything. I think the sentence is self explanatory.

  8. #88
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Have you graduated yet? I want to send you a post card.
    I think he was hoping you would say money, not post card.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Lauri, I only take milk directly from the breast, no fire retardants ....
    OK, I'll bite. Where do you get your "retardants" from?
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    I wondered from where he got the breast to feed from.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  11. #91
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    If requeening would solve the problem, I would do it. If it's not going to solve the problem, I wouldn't.
    It would solve the problem - if you could get a queen that was genetically equipped to address the issue. In NZ, where you are, I understand, that isn't possible in the case of varroa.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The genetic mutation that caused people not to have black skins, was not fatal, but likely encouraged those of us with it, to leave Africa.
    That's a wonderful theory! Isn't it rather more likely that those living in cold climates benefitted from a lighter skin? The lighter skin might simply have been selected for by female preference. It might have been better camouflage. Not every change is caused by genetic mutation - slow changes caused by incremental adaptation is often the cause of such minor shifs as skin colour.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    The lighter skin might simply have been selected for by female preference.
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    It might have been better camouflage. Not every change is caused by genetic mutation- slow changes caused by incremental adaptation is often the cause of such minor shifs as skin colour.
    Emphasis might. I will not ask you to provide evidence for your claim it was not a mutation but rather incremental adaption, because I doubt you could find a link, as usual.

    However interesting theory or conjecture Mike, and sorry to have to keep telling you that are wrong all the time. But as I've said before, if possible you should find out what really happens before making up theories, I prefer facts over theories always. And as I stated, white skin is a mutation.

    Whether the mutation occurred just before, just after, or during the time people were moving out of Africa, in any case, the Black people stayed, the White people left.

    As people moved away from Africa, the white skin mutation became less of a "bad" mutation, and more like a "good" mutation. Purely cos the goodness, or badness, was location dependant. A lesson that can also apply to bees and beekeeping.

    Read and learn -

    "Scientists have discovered a tiny genetic mutation that largely explains the first appearance of white skin in humans tens of thousands of years ago, a finding that helps solve one of biology's most enduring mysteries and illuminates one of humanity's greatest sources of strife.......
    The newly found mutation involves a change of just one letter of DNA Code out of the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome--the complete instructions for making a human being".


    http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/first...ite_skin_i.htm
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-18-2013 at 05:47 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    It would solve the problem - if you could get a queen that was genetically equipped to address the issue.
    I would whole heartedly disagree. If it was that easy, varroa wouldn't be a problem for anyone.

  15. #95
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Lauri, I only take milk directly from the breast, no fire retardants, although it does set my gonads on fire.
    Acebird,

    Congratulations, on your 6600th post.

    You will soon be the 6th highest posting member of this fourm...
    Last edited by BeeCurious; 08-18-2013 at 06:28 AM.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  16. #96
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    Roy, Wa
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    And quite the impressive post too, I might add. Might just go down as a new record low for Beesource's informative reputation.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    And quite the impressive post too, I might add. Might just go down as a new record low for Beesource's informative reputation.
    There are quite a few of those 6600 posts that would compete for that honor.
    Last edited by beedeetee; 08-18-2013 at 08:56 AM.
    Bruce

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    For a little comedic relief from all this seriousness, you can revisit one of the all-time great Ace threads here:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...965#post702965

    The link above is to the first page of the thread, but by page 5 the antics got to the point where Mark B posted this:
    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Y'all leave my 'bird alone now, ya hear? He doin' the best he can wid wha he got. Ain't we all?



    (remember that the blue arrow in the quote box links to the original post)
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    I would whole heartedly disagree. If it was that easy, varroa wouldn't be a problem for anyone.
    I didn't say it was easy - though it is easy for some. But that's the principle of breeding toward resistance, which is the only long-term solution.

    What really makes it hard to raise resistance is the ongoing systematic treatments that constantly undermine the natural development of resistance, and the difficulties involved in raising resistance without losing stock.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I will not ask you to provide evidence for your claim it was not a mutation but rather incremental adaption, because I doubt you could find a link, as usual.
    The very same thing is suggested on your very own reference! Not that I want to take that as evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Whether the mutation occurred just before, just after, or during the time people were moving out of Africa, in any case, the Black people stayed, the White people left.
    Or: the white skins did badly in the sun, the darker skins did better...

    Where on your own referenced document (or anywhere else) is anything said about white people leaving Africa because their skins had turned white? That was your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    As people moved away from Africa, the white skin mutation became less of a "bad" mutation, and more like a "good" mutation.
    Well, yes. I think that's what I've been saying. (I'm still dubious about this business of a sudden mutation, and I'd like a proper reference to the peer-reviewed science).

    What I object to is your notion that suddenly there was a single mutation, and somebody's skin turned white, then they and their children/grandchildren (who somehow didn't revert to darker skins - perhaps no-one wanted to mate with them because they had horrid white skin... Wait, how did they have children then... !!!! Anyway, we'll figure out the details later): then all these white people upped sticks and went North which nobody had done before because, er, well they hadn't, and so formed the white population of the North, Ta Da!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    "Scientists have discovered a tiny genetic mutation that largely explains the first appearance of white skin in humans tens of thousands of years ago, a finding that helps solve one of biology's most enduring mysteries and illuminates one of humanity's greatest sources of strife.......
    Not exactly a peer-reviewed source this is it? Revisionist history of race distribution?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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