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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Now that three of us (treatment-free beekeepers) have questioned the origin of this quote, including two published authors, I would like to provide an example of why it might be questioned.

    If a mechanic down at the local wrench shop told me that he heard two people tell him that they run their cars with water in the engine instead of oil, the correct response would not be "that's not how it works," the correct response would be "who told you this now?" The statement is so ludicrous that criticism of it transcends mere refutation and proceeds straight into importunate incredulity. There simply must be an alternate explanation, whether it be misunderstanding, caricature, or misquote.
    "That's rediculous." may have been the most appropriate response. I still see no importance to who said so. If I told you that Jim Thomas and Andrew Swartz said it, what would that tell you or matter? You'd then want to know who they are and what their bonifides are to determine their standing in the beekeeping society. But it still woulkdn't matter. It's still a rediculous statement.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Well, it looks like this thread has, er, evolved. Forgive me for risking a push in yet a different direction, though I think it is in line with the original post.

    I took the original attribution to relate to genetics at the molecular level (occupational hazard), but do see how it could be interpreted at the colony level, as was stated earlier on.

    I'd like to observe that there seems to be an assumption that genetic alteration at the molecular level is always the result of mutation. That isn't so. Genes can also be "silenced" while remaining intact and the silencing can be transferred to offspring, at least to a limited extent. This is part of the field of epigenetics.

    Yes, there is published, scientific, peer-reviewed information on hereditary epigenetics. Here is one overview, for those who enjoy such reading: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/20/1....full.pdf+html . It is interesting to note that honeybees are mentioned in the article, but not in relation to treatment with chemical compounds (nutrition instead). I do not know if any studies have been carried out on the ability of treatments to enact epigenetic change in honeybees. There is much that needs to be learned about this topic in general, so I wouldn't draw any foundational conclusions about all hereditary epigenetics quite yet.

    Pete
    Pete. New 2013, 3 hives, zone 6a
    To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    It's still a rediculous statement.
    It's the assertion that it was said that I find ridiculous.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    The likely hood of hereditary epigenetic's was also discussed in another thread. Concerns that queens raised under swarm conditions had their DNA changed to produce bees that were more prone to swarming. It was a good thread some might like to read. I will look for it and post the link if I can find it.

    Changing gene expression due to environmental exposure is not changing the actual DNA however. This is a big issue with GMO products as well. New DNA is inserted, but cannot be totally controlled where it will 'land' or what genes it will effect. (Turn on or off)Resulting in Some surprising unintended consequences. The DNA IS changed, but it is the unknown and undesired effect on subsequent gene expression that is the problem.

    The more I read, the more I realize I don't know. Dang.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    I am not about to read all 60 relys to see if someone has already asked my question, if they have please excuse me, but assuming there is a change is it always for worse or for better?

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    But let's be realistic. Bees fly everywhere. They come into contact with everything. Many contacts are totally unsanitary. It's the nature of the insect that can't be controlled. Just because you don't put treatment in the hive yourself, doesn't mean the hive is contaminate free.

    . . .


    Eventually getting to treatment free is a great goal, but in my opinion, not a good one for a beginner with new hives. Hives that are treatment free generally don't happen overnight and on their own.
    Two very well presented points Lauri.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    It's the assertion that it was said that I find ridiculous.
    I.e. I'm a liar.

    We get it. Thanks Sol. But still not the point of the thread.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    assuming there is a change is it always for worse or for better?
    Exposures leading to eventual evolutional changes? Well that's how resistance develops. Whether it's good or bad depends on if it's what you want.

    -Mite resistance to treatments-bad
    -colony resistance to harsh conditions-good
    Last edited by Lauri; 08-17-2013 at 01:42 PM.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    It's the assertion that it was said that I find ridiculous.
    Why? Saying that implies mistrust of the OPer. Doesn't it?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    I am not about to read all 60 relys to see if someone has already asked my question, if they have please excuse me, but assuming there is a change is it always for worse or for better?
    Could be subjective. Better or worse depends on one's point of view.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    Just because you don't put treatment in the hive yourself, doesn't mean the hive is contaminate free.
    This was shown to be true in a study by Penn State's Maryanne Frazier in which she had package bees installed in new equipment w/ frames w/out foundation. When samples of wax and honey were analyzed all sorts of chemicals were found. Even fluvalinate, aka Apistan. No chemical treatments or antibiotics were used in the test hives.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Why? Saying that implies mistrust of the OPer. Doesn't it?
    It seems to me to be pretty obvious. If this gets said all the time, then we ought to find out who is saying it and get them to stop. We have already seen that this thread was a setup to argue against Bond Test beekeeping. There's no point in fighting the straw man. What are the facts? Why do these statements not fit with reality?

    It's like if I said commercial beekeepers requeen once and even twice a year. That is something that does get said all the time and something commercial beeks are quite keen to quash. Am I not right?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    No, seems to me you are cynical and untrusting. I believed what was said and took it to be true that someone said what it was said they said. You chose not to trust your fellow man.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Mark, if someone told you they used water instead of gasoline, you wouldn't believe it either. But you're not a treatment-free beekeeper. What people claim they say means nothing to you.

    You are well versed in ripping people a new one for posting things that are obviously wrong.

    It's like if somebody said commercial beekeepers requeen twice a year. That is something that does get said all the time and something commercial beeks are quite keen to quash. Am I right?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    It's like if somebody said commercial beekeepers requeen twice a year. That is something that does get said all the time and something commercial beeks are quite keen to quash. Am I right?
    Yes, u r right.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  16. #76
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    It's like if I said commercial beekeepers requeen once and even twice a year. That is something that does get said all the time and something commercial beeks are quite keen to quash. Am I not right?
    "New Standard
    The Gold Standard for re-queening used to be once a year. Now, it’s twice a year"

    http://www.beesource.com/point-of-vi...august-1-2011/

    Regards, Barry

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    I'd better start building more mating nucs for next year then...Thanks for the heads up Barry

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Lauri, sqkcrk; What I was trying to determine was that if any change occurs, is the change capable of producing more varroa resistant bees or does it always produce a bee weaker, and more susceptible to varroa damage. If it is a craps shoot then I would think it is foolish to not wait and see what resistance the colony would show after treatment. Actually, it is my opinion that the probability of a treatment making a change is very low.

    It also my opinion, and we all have one, is that all of this treatment/treatment free discourse is wasted. Each side is entrenched and has no intention of giving ground, therefore we should confine ourselves to giving to other beekeepers what advice we can about practical beekeeping. Ulitmately each person will make their own decision about how they will keep their bees, and if their bees prosper, they will get the credit for making the proper decision.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Commercials requeening twice a year? Who authorized the release of this information? It must have been Snowden.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    Lauri, sqkcrk; What I was trying to determine was that if any change occurs, is the change capable of producing more varroa resistant bees or does it always produce a bee weaker, ...
    Who knows? Bees are complex creatures.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

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