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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,994

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Ah OK, I get it, the remark was tongue in cheek. Quite funny if one sees it that way I guess.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
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    1,622

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    So....let me get this straight.
    If I was an ugly woman and got one date with a good looking man...it would change my DNA and I would turn into a Victoria Secret model?

    LOL, I believe only a few things like radiation exposure and some serious age can actually CHANGE/Alter/ Damage your DNA. Constant small dose exposure to toxins over time can also cause damage. But one treatment changing the DNA? I find that impossible to believe or even consider.
    Treatments masking flaws in the hives genetics? Now that's believable.

    And depends on what 'treatments' you are talking about. Antibiotics or mite treatment. Disruption of the bees system through medication can be serious. Giving an infested hive a fighting chance to let VSH stock get a foothold and flourish is another.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Cupertino, CA, USA
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    280

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    snip
    Last edited by MichaelShantz; 08-16-2013 at 07:50 PM.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
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    2,724

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    And depends on what 'treatments' you are talking about. Antibiotics or mite treatment.
    I would assume mite treatments. AFB isn't any more of a problem here than anywhere else. And most don't "advertise" resistance to AFB, or really select for it (as far as I know). When you sell a queen as "treatment free" around here, it's usually referred to as mites only.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Athens, OH
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    2,695

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    At the risk of exposing my ignorance, it is known that humans in defoliated areas of VietNam suffered genetic changes as evidenced by several generations of birth defects. How that relates to treatments for bees, I don't know.
    As to Lauri's statement, I have personal experience in ugly women being changed into models after the application of alcohol.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,092

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Application or ingestion Charlie?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  7. #47
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    Jan 2011
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    Athens, OH
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    2,695

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Ahem, well, that was many years ago, of course. My recollections might not be that accurate.
    I guess my point would be that it's pretty plain that certain agents can cause genetic changes that can be passed on to descendants. But it would certainly matter what that agent was. In the above example, there would probably have been fewer changes had 20,000,000 gallons of Gatorade been applied, instead.
    I've not heard of genetic damage being blamed on common mite treatments, though.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,531

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    i will hopefully have some queens and nucs to sell next year. they will come from a line of bees with a 17 year history of surviving and thriving treatment free.

    those interested in working with proven survivor stock might want to consider trying them.

    but these bees will come with a disclaimor: past performance is no guarantee of future results, and no representation is made that these bees are any better than any others.

    i am in agreement with the comments made by mike bush, jwchestnut, and keith delaplane that we beekeepers probably give ourselves too much credit with regard to our ability to influence bee genetics.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #49
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,994

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    And depends on what 'treatments' you are talking about. Antibiotics or mite treatment.
    Yes this is a common straw man argument that pops up in nearly all these types of threads sooner or later. The discussion starts off about treating / non treating mites, then somebody says oh, it doesn't work that way because treatment has been shown to disrupt micro fauna. Often they fail to mention they are referring to antibiotics, which are not used to treat mites. So it no bearing to mite treatment at all and is a straw man argument.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Halfway, Oregon, USA
    Posts
    160

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    I guess I don't get it... why would you treat when you can re-queen?

  11. #51
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    If requeening would solve the problem, I would do it. If it's not going to solve the problem, I wouldn't.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,092

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yes this is a common straw man argument that pops up ... So it no bearing to mite treatment at all and is a straw man argument.
    Did you get Solomon's permission to use the "straw man argument" argument?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  13. #53
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Ha Ha, yes I've heard him on the subject so often that I had to find out what a straw man argument actually is, and it was in fact Solomon who completed my education on it. Once I learned about it, I then began to see it happening and could put a name on it, where previously I had just known something with an argument wasn't being done honestly, but couldn't figure out how to express that.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,483

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    why would you ever elect to simply let the hive die instead (at least, from a mite resistant genetic point of view)?
    Because if you are going to use a chemical to treat you will contaminate the equipment and I do not want to contaminate my equipment for future use. If that is stupid, so be it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    5,079

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    I've heard it mentioned more than once before:

    "These queens are treatment free. They will thrive without treatments. But if you do treat, you'll destroy the genetics and they'll never be able to be treatment free again."
    Now that three of us (treatment-free beekeepers) have questioned the origin of this quote, including two published authors, I would like to provide an example of why it might be questioned.

    If a mechanic down at the local wrench shop told me that he heard two people tell him that they run their cars with water in the engine instead of oil, the correct response would not be "that's not how it works," the correct response would be "who told you this now?" The statement is so ludicrous that criticism of it transcends mere refutation and proceeds straight into importunate incredulity. There simply must be an alternate explanation, whether it be misunderstanding, caricature, or misquote.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #56
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    Sep 2005
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    Greensboro, North Carolina
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    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Because if you are going to use a chemical to treat you will contaminate the equipment
    Who says you are limited to chemicals? Your assuming that when I say "treat" I mean "use harsh chemicals." There are plenty of treatments that don't involve chemicals that have long lasting contamination effects to the equipment (I'm not referring to long lasting contamination effects to wax or the bees themselves).

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,116

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    > Because if you are going to use a chemical to treat you will contaminate the equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    Who says you are limited to chemicals? Your assuming that when I say "treat" I mean "use harsh chemicals." There are plenty of treatments that don't involve chemicals ....
    Indeed. In fact, the rules of the Treatment Free forum specifically mention sugar dusting as a treatment that is not allowed.
    Treatment: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees.

    Treatments include but are not limited to:
    Apiguard (thymol)
    Mite-away II (formic acid)
    ....
    Sugar Dusting (sucrose)
    HBH (essential oils)
    MegaBee (diet formula)
    ...

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ue-Forum-Rules
    (note: the above is intended to point out that dusting with sugar can be considered a treatment. Since this is NOT the TF forum, discussion of such treatments is permissible )

    Any someone who claims that sugar contaminates comb for future use is, well .... pretty far out there!
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  18. #58
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    Jan 2011
    Location
    Athens, OH
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    2,695

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    I think the organic acids evaporate away without leaving behind contamination, too.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  19. #59
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    Jan 2011
    Location
    Athens, OH
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    2,695

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    Who says you are limited to chemicals? .
    I'm reminded of a treatment for a certain kind of lice. Shave half the hair, set the other half on fire and stab the ones that run out with an icepick.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    1,622

    Default Re: Does treating a "Treatment Free" queen really destroy her genetics?

    I'm always surprised at the determined attitude of many beekeepers to keep the hive spotlessly clean of any and all contaminates.
    I try my best, within reason, to do so. But let's be realistic. Bees fly everywhere. They come into contact with everything. Many contacts are totally unsanitary. It's the nature of the insect that can't be controlled. Just because you don't put treatment in the hive yourself, doesn't mean the hive is contaminate free. If simple, low toxicity one time exposure changes DNA, we'd all be in trouble.

    Even humans have significant levels of many toxins, including the chemical they use for fire retardant products in breast milk. They didn't ingest it.They didn't get 'treated' with it. It is a contact exposure contamination.
    Trying to avoid toxins and contaminates is a good idea, but you are only as 'clean' as your environment.

    I'm not a fan of any treatments. I never treat with antibiotics. I've never needed to.
    But in the case of mites, well that's another issue. Especially if your bees are newly purchased this year. You have to work into a treatment free management style. Not just put your head in the sand and 'wish' the mites away.

    I worm my horses on a regular basis. Same for my dog. Parasites are not going to quit infesting my livestock and pets just because I wish them to. I can't SEE them, but they are there. Because they are healthy and virtually parasite free due to good care, I don't have to worm them near as often as the manufacturer suggests.

    But if I bought a horse from the auction that was skinny and wormy..would I just feed it well and hope the worm problem cleared up on it's own? I'd treat that sucker and clean him out first.

    I do the same for my bees when necessary. I do have to say I believe my VSH stock is showing it's stuff this year. But I did treat the hives early spring to give the new queens a clean start. I have many hives that are 10 frame, 4, 5 and a few 6 deeps high. No apparent brood break with active brood rearing since January. Hives I expected to need treatment this fall. I won't tell you what my mite drop is, You probably wouldn't believe me.
    Maybe it's the early spring treatment with Apivar that is responsible for these clean late summer hives.. Maybe it's the hybrid vigor of second and third generation VSH genetics kicking in. I fully expected to treat again this fall. $400. worth of Apivar sitting by my computer ready to go. But I keep looking at my white slide in under my screened Bottom boards and wonder if it is a trick. One mite, two mites...nothing. I'm amazed.

    All in all, unless you're a scientist with a lab at your disposal, the best we all can do is observe and make our best guess. (And read Beesource too of course!)

    Eventually getting to treatment free is a great goal, but in my opinion, not a good one for a beginner with new hives. Thriving Hives that are treatment free generally don't happen overnight and on their own.

    I'm sure package and nuc producers love to heat newbies talk of being treatment free. Treatment free newbie=Return customers.

    It's all been discussed here before. Its hard to have definitive proof of anything when it comes to bees. You have to consider ALL the variables, not just the obvious ones.

    Just my 2 cents

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mille...56954971040510
    Last edited by Lauri; 08-17-2013 at 01:28 PM.

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