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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    What I heard about at our meeting sounded to me like something worth supporting moneterealy. I don't mind spending money on things which look like a good thing. That doesn't mean I jump in whole hog and become a fanatic. If I didn't support things I don't totally understand or know about as well as others do I probably wouldn't support much of anything.

    I have been a supporter of that group in CA that advocates planting bee friendly habitats. I donated money, they sent me stickers. Nice idea. I can't do much more than that myself, other than not planting crops on my farm.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  2. #102
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    MN, I think what this Thread shows is that many beekeepers are just as concerned about the alternative, maybe more so. Many of us are not jumping on a band wagon. We don't want to see bees killed and people inconvenienced, but what is the alternative? What we had before? Something newer? Nothing at all?

    We don't live in a vacuum, so what do you see as a solution to systemics versus other types of pesticides which modern agriculture depends on to provide the food we all eat?
    well thats a bit extreme to say. I mean if i have to write it out i will.
    15 years ago....Despite the few mass bee kills due to over spray and unlucky placement and timing was where we should have stayed.
    its like you all have been snowed by the chem companies. i mean its business to them, they had money and time to try and figure out how to make more money. In a perfect world they would have considered the bees when they developed neonics.

    this is not a perfect world " more profit, less money to make money......
    who do you think did the testing to see if these things were safe???????
    the makers of the product did the tests and reported back to the EPA on the results.
    do you really think they did it complete and thorough job testing this stuff?
    THE ANSWER IS NO... WE ARE THE TEST !!! our back breaking labor is the test. our weak colonies are the test. our sub par honey crops are the test.

    The folks on here who have been doing this much longer than i have are the ones that need to step up and say hey besides mites and foul brood this is the worst thing to come to beekeeping.
    and so many of them are its just they dont have a screen name on beesource.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Tell me how many colonies died from use of pesticides? Do you have hard numbers? Notice I didn't say neonics or CCD, but pesticides. Of which systemics like the neonics are a part. How many?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  4. #104
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Tell me how many colonies died from use of pesticides? Do you have hard numbers? Notice I didn't say neonics or CCD, but pesticides. Of which systemics like the neonics are a part. How many?
    Thats a trick question because you know i cant answer it. If i had to estimate i would say approximately a **** ton....

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Okay, let me make it easier. Do you know of any colonies that have died from pesticide exposure, personally?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  6. #106
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    What I heard about at our meeting sounded to me like something worth supporting moneterealy. I don't mind spending money on things which look like a good thing. That doesn't mean I jump in whole hog and become a fanatic. If I didn't support things I don't totally understand or know about as well as others do I probably wouldn't support much of anything.
    Well, the suit is against sulfloxaflor, a new neonic.

    http://earthjustice.org/news/press/2...ling-pesticide

    "The National Pollinator Defense Fund, American Honey Producers Association, National Honey Bee Advisory Board, the American Beekeeping Federation, and beekeepers Bret Adee, Jeff Anderson and Thomas R. Smith have filed an appeal against the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, requesting changes needed in the Sulfoxaflor label, the Biological Economic Assessment Division (BEAD) assessment of the value of pollinators and their established habits, and the EPA’s Risk Assessment Process. These changes would acknowledge pollinator’s critical role in the U.S. food supply, and ensure that decisions regarding new pesticides comply with applicable laws."

    MN, I think what this Thread shows is that many beekeepers are just as concerned about the alternative, maybe more so. Many of us are not jumping on a band wagon. We don't want to see bees killed and people inconvenienced, but what is the alternative? What we had before? Something newer? Nothing at all?
    We don't live in a vacuum, so what do you see as a solution to systemics versus other types of pesticides which modern agriculture depends on to provide the food we all eat?"
    So, they're not just trying to block a neonic, they're actually trying the change the process itself by which pesticides are approved so that they are safer for pollinators, etc. .

    That should give you some relief from the fear that eliminating a pesticide would only leave us with worse choices.

    I do agree that the process needs to be reformed.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Yea yours

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by MNbees View Post
    Yea yours
    So, you are exactly the wrong person to be advocating anything pro or con concerning pesticides and their use, because you don't base your position on facts.

    You don't know anything about whether any colonies nationwide were killed last year by pesticide exposure and you don't know any first hand examples either. But you assume my colonies have died from pesticide use.

    Do you know what it means to assume? What happens when one assumes?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  9. #109
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Fellas, there are plenty of reports in the media for beekills.

    There's no need for 'debate'.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Yea the media are well know for facts and beekeepers...

    I said it before And I say it again. The hypocrisy of some is so alarming..... Guys like WLC " I believe Jim Doan" but not the hundreds of guys in the midwest who actually deal with this stuff....

    I have no clue how much honey my hives make, but yours must be sick.....

    I do not understand some people..... rather believe foolish news stories, than facts from the ground...... your the kind of Guy who works at the DMV and tells people standing in front of them, "the computer says your dead, so I can't help you".......

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Fellas, there are plenty of reports in the media for beekills.

    There's no need for 'debate'.
    Site a cpl for me, will ya?

    Why isn't "Pesticide Exposure" on the Apiary Inspectors of America's list of the causes of the 30% dieback? If Pesticide Kills aren't reported and investigated they don't exist. I will concede that that is highly unlikely, that none occured, but where are the reported cases?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  12. #112
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Fellas, there are plenty of reports in the media for beekills.

    There's no need for 'debate'.
    Maybe not, but there is need for actual knowledge of the degree and intensity of the problem. How bad is it?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  13. #113
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    You mean, like Steve Ellis?

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    WLC while you would like us to believe you have all the answers and data and the rest of us are wrong you cannot even keep your insecticides straight. Sulfloxaflor is not a neonic. It is a new chemical family and is the only member of that family. It does act in a similar way to neonics, but it is not a neonic. Extrapolating one to another is wrong.
    Dave

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    I got that information from the Earthjustice webpage.

    It's being called a sulfoxamine.

    However, after reviewing its structural formula, and comparing it to nicotine and imidacloprid, it looks like a nicotine derivative.

    Putting lipstick on a pig!

    How clever.

    Its a neonic Dave.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    You mean, like Steve Ellis?
    What about Steve Ellis?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  17. #117
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    wlc: "I'm pro-regulation, anti-pollution..."

    in the european union, environmental activist groups not even involved with beekeeping adopted the honey bee as their poster child. by sensationalizing bee colony losses and blaming it on neonics the environmentalists waged a public misinformation campaign that resulted in the masses becoming anti-neonic. despite scientists and experts testifying that they had no solid evidence implicating neonics for the colony losses, the politicians ended up caving in to public sentiment, and they set a two year ban on neonics in place citing the 'precautionary principle' as the justification.

    wlc is on record as being an environmentalist, and he is especially concerned with native pollinators. he would like to see a ban on pesticides. i believe that he hopes associating bee colony losses with pesticides will accomplish the same thing here.

    it's no wonder that you disparage the positions of the leaders in the beekeeping community who aren't on you're environmental bandwagon wlc. the problem with trying promote this nonsense on beesource and the reason it's not working is because the folks here know better.

    you would get more bang for your buck on msnbc.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    squrepeg:

    "The National Pollinator Defense Fund, American Honey Producers Association, National Honey Bee Advisory Board, the American Beekeeping Federation, and beekeepers Bret Adee..."

    They're all suing the EPA to block the neonic solfoxaflor, and change the process to make pesticides safer for pollinators.

    I don't think that you've made a valid point.

    Beware of false prophets.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I got that information from the Earthjustice webpage.

    It's being called a sulfoxamine.

    However, after reviewing its structural formula, and comparing it to nicotine and imidacloprid, it looks like a nicotine derivative.

    Putting lipstick on a pig!

    How clever.

    Its a neonic Dave.
    So we can add a lack of knowledge of chemistry to your list.
    Dave

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    So far, the argument against neonics here are these:

    Scientific consensus says they are bad.

    Public opinion says they are bad.

    There is a lawsuit.

    There is a warning label.

    I haven't seen any legitimate points here against neonics. Seriously, WLC, people like me that are not well educated about neonics are the most important ones you need to be convincing. If this thread were a political campaign, I would vote for the OP.
    Try it. What could happen?

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