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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I've lost track of how many different groups are suing the EPA over neonics, but they're going to start dealing with persistent sources of misinformation.

    This is all political in my view.
    that explains it. please note that there are no major beekeeping organizations suing the epa to get neonics banned, but rather a handful of beekeepers joining a number of 'environmental groups'.

    that this is political for you is understating the obvious.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    misinformation.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    don't believe so, but if you can prove me wrong, please do.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Neonics are insecticides..of course they are harmful to insects...duh! The issue I have is there is no science that shows neonics are responsible for CCD yet so many are on the wagon to ban them. o.k. fine...Then we go back to the likes of penncap-M.

    Fact is we could ban all pesticide use and still have CCD, why? cuz we don't know the root cause.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    But, I do know the root cause: AGO2 knockdown.

    It has nothing to do with neonics. However, the scientific consensus is that they're a contributing factor.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    But, I do know the root cause: AGO 2 knockdown.
    And you know that how? and if that is indeed the cause how are neonics responsible?

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "This product can kill bees and other insect pollinators".

    That's pretty clear.
    Nobody here would argue that an insecticide is capable of killing an insect.


    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Suppression of dissenters, or the fringe, refers to political aspect of this.

    I've lost track of how many different groups are suing the EPA over neonics, but they're going to start dealing with persistent sources of misinformation.

    As for open dissenters, if they're part of a sponsoring organization, that's easily fixed.

    This is all political in my view.
    This is some of the scariest stuff I've ever seen. Don't agree with my position? I hope your business fails and you're on the street in a box.

    Suppress the dissenters. Sounds eerily authoritarian.

    Try it. What could happen?

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    sqkcrk:

    You're an ESHPA officer, and so is PLB.

    The ESHPA is a sponsor of the NPDF. It's logo is on the NPDF webpage.

    WLC.
    Actually you are wrong about that. Peter Loring Borst has not been an officer (or even a Board Member) of ESHPA since last November. If you recall I worte "He was absent." when you brought up the vote of approval of a donation to the NPDF? He resigned before that meeting. I don't know if he got to Montreal for Apimondia, but he had plans to go.

    At our most recent Board Mtng we wondered amongst ourselves what the NPDF had done w/ the donation we made to them. We haven't gotten any kind of report from them as far as I recall. I guess we now know something about what they have been up to, in an indirect manner.

    I don't appreciate you telling me what I can't do w/ my own mind. You are acting just like folks who told me I could not be against the War in Iraq and hold our Soldiers in high regard. Find some other tactic to convince me of your point of view. (what I was going to say would have gotten this Deleted and me a warning)
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Personal attack.


    "Suppress the dissenters. Sounds eerily authoritarian."

    That's 'party' politics.

    "And you know that how?"

    An obscure molecular signature found in an EST, that I followed to a virus sequence from the original U.S. CCD site, that matched AGO2 in the Honeybee. Thus, knockdown.


    "and if that is indeed the cause how are neonics responsible?"

    It's what the published Scientific consensus IS that matters. That's why they're included.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    As for open dissenters, if they're part of a sponsoring organization, that's easily fixed.

    This is all political in my view.
    So why don't you come up to Syracuse in November and run for office in thge Empire State Honey Producers Association. My seat will be vacant Friday afternoon at the General Meeting. Your free to take it if anyone will vote for you. Enough anyones.

    But no, you won't do that. That would mean giving up a position you hold to valuable, your anonimity.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    An obscure molecular signature found in an EST, that I followed to a virus sequence from the original U.S. CCD site, that matched AGO2 in the Honeybee. Thus, knockdown.
    O.k. Fine. Every documented case of CCD also has found to have Nosema ceranae, and by applying your logic that is a root cause.

    See where this is going? If not...forming a conclusion based on bad science.


    It's what the published Scientific consensus IS that matters. That's why they're included.
    and again published Science knew that Blacks were intellectually inferior...

    Homosexuality was a mental disorder..

    Global Warming is man made...

    or...

    or...

    or...

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Meanwhile...hive continue to thrive in the middle of neonic application.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    But, I do know the root cause: AGO2 knockdown.

    It has nothing to do with neonics. However, the scientific consensus is that they're a contributing factor.
    And of course you can prove that, right? So why don't you tell the World that you have found the answer and become famous?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    sqkcrk:

    Whatever you say man.

    rbees:

    All that I can tell you is that the new neonic label graphic said, "The science says that there are many causes for a decline in pollinator health, including pesticide exposure. EPA's new label will help protect pollinators."

    That's the usual scientific consensus statement.

    I don't think that the other stuff is really relevant, but I do get your point.

    Don't get me started about some of the recent nastiness that occurred in Honeybee research. It was savage.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    This has been a very instructive thread.

    Someone asks you a tough question .... one that you don't want to answer?

    Just reply with a couple of key phrases that are irrelevant to the question, but sound good. Be sure not to quote the original question, so you can't really be pinned down as to what you really meant!

    Throw in a few smileys and you too can be an expert!

    Graham
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    I don't think that we can really argue the whole "Do Not!", "Do Too!" bit when it comes to neonics and Honeybees anymore.

    The EPA dropped the big one.

    I'm not going to argue a label, neither should you.

    My own opinion is that it's all politics from now on.

    There's no way to win, unless you're actually in it.

    There's no there, there, as far as I can tell.

    PS- I never feel obligated to answer all questions. Some of them don't have an answer, or require language I can't use on Beesource.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    sqkcrk:

    Whatever you say man.

    Don't get me started about some of the recent nastiness that occurred in Honeybee research. It was savage.
    You calling me a liar?

    That last line looks like a teaser.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Thanks for providing a timely illustration to vividly demonstrate my point!




    (oops, Mark got in the posting queue first. I wasn't referring to Mark)
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-18-2013 at 04:56 PM. Reason: clarify
    Graham
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Radarsidetrack:

    Do you think that the new EPA labels make future discussions about neonics and bee health moot?

    WLC.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    I'm learning from your fine example .... at the master's knee, so to speak.
    Graham
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

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