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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    WLC your apparently to ____ (you fill in any word you like) to be able to understand a complicated thing like keeping your bees out if the seed bags. seems to me your the guy we label Irons "caution hot" for........... keep bees in a normaly maner, use pesticides like there intended... and SHAZAM we get good crops, and healthy productive bees......

    Soo lets get back to brass tacks, how much honey have your hives averaged this year???

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    gmcharlie; squarepeg:

    So you're asking me about my honey production, and then I'm being asked if there's any evidence that neonics are harming Honeybee colonies.

    I don't extract, and plenty.

    I understand your own anecdotal evidence, and I've certainly provided the neonic evidence before.

    Of course, now we have the EPA saying that neonics can kill bees and pollinators.

    Deflection isn't really a helpful tactic when I'm trying to explain that there's really no good reason to discredit the EPA labels or the scientific consensus.

    I don't understand why anyone would bother to say, 'why/how I know the anti-neonics guys are wrong.'

    If it's somehow in your own best interest, please explain. I don't get it.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    By saying that there's no evidence for neonics causing honeybee losses.


    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ok, i'll play.

    short of planting dust kills, what evidence is there for neonics causing honeybee losses?

    and let's keep it to the u.s. and canada.


    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    Of course, now we have the EPA saying that neonics can kill bees and pollinators.

    of course neonics can kill bees and pollinators, they are insecticides. nothing new here.

    still waiting for your 'evidence'.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    never mind.

    "no wise man has the power to reason away what a fool believes"

    doobie brothers
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Personal attack.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    apropos, no?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    evidence?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #48
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    SP, I feel your pain!

    This resembles some of the discussions I have had with Ace! Sometimes it just comes down to making fun of the other side's mis-statements, because you can't get them to engage in a sensible discussion.

    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    i appreciate the empathy graham. i'm still kicking myself for engaging, again. i don't think anyone here is taking that crap seriously.

    having said that, and for the record, i'm keeping an open mind with respect to pesticides. i was happy to learn about the national bee survey today. understanding colony loss is a big deal, i just don't have much patience for 'the sky is falling' mentality.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's not in the best interest of a beekeeper. It's not in the best interest of a beekeeper/farmer.

    If farmers oppose the new labels, they'll be going against public opinion.

    It's almost a 'forced play' for farmesr to join beekeepers who are suing the EPA.
    Whether WLC is right or wrong on neonics is irrelevant. The justification he offers against neonics consists of "Neonics are bad because public opinion is against them and their is a scientific consensus." Where's the actual science?
    Try it. What could happen?

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    we have neonics in New Zealand but we don't have CCD I think the same applies to Australia as well.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    I'm trying to tell you that you're holding fringe beliefs.

    The EPA has recognized the problem, and your own beekeeping organizations are suing the EPA over neonics.

    This kind of a thread is needlessly provocative, isn't a mainstream belief, there's plenty of evidence disproving it's assertions, and it belongs in tailgater rather than out here with polite society.

    It is insensitive and out of touch.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i appreciate the empathy graham. i'm still kicking myself for engaging, again. i don't think anyone here is taking that crap seriously.

    having said that, and for the record, i'm keeping an open mind with respect to pesticides. i was happy to learn about the national bee survey today. understanding colony loss is a big deal, i just don't have much patience for 'the sky is falling' mentality.
    I believe you would get more out of reading Randy Oliver's second article in ABJ than what you are getting from engaging in this roundy round w/ WLC. It's chock full of intelligent perspective and openmindedness. Stop wasting your time.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    Actually there is some argument about worldwide colony count decline. Read Peter Borst's ABJ article.

    No, I don't own ABJ Stock.

    Do you recall the Whole Foods illustration of what a world w/out bees would make the produce isle at the grocery store look like? All of those vacant bins. I believe they were wrong. They should have found bins full of underdeveloped fruits. That's what we would have, not no lemons, but fewer good looking fruits and vegetables.
    Last edited by sqkcrk; 08-18-2013 at 05:18 AM.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    sqkcrk:

    You're an ESHPA officer, and so is PLB.

    The ESHPA is a sponsor of the NPDF. It's logo is on the NPDF webpage.

    Since all of those major beekeeping organizations are suing the EPA to ban neonics, I don't think that you can afford to appear 'open minded' on a closed issue.

    This is one of those problems that Bret Adee needs to address.

    He has to get control of this 'fringe' problem. That includes dealing with members of other organizations, ABJ, etc..

    I hope that it doesn't come down to calling for a boycott of sponsors by the membership of the major U.S. beekeeping organizations.
    But, that's a very real weapon that the organizations suing the EPA have for suppressing the fringe.

    He's got to start making phone calls.

    WLC.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    What I think is really crazy/ludicrious in your positions WLC is your "I will take Jim Doan at his word" and the total inability to take any one else opinion or experiences. Jim Doan got hit with something.. My bet is intentionally.... His neighbors bees were fine...
    Her I am with dozens of others representing 100s of beeks in the thickest part of the chems you rail against... and were fools...

    Your hipcrosy knows know bounds... I am betting your on someones payroll

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Since all of those major beekeeping organizations are suing the EPA to ban neonics...
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    But, that's a very real weapon that the organizations suing the EPA have for suppressing the fringe.

    He's got to start making phone calls.

    WLC.
    "suppressing the fringe." You are heading down a very ugly path, not that I believe it's remotely possible. If we don't like what some have to say, we figure out ways to "suppress them."
    Regards, Barry

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    This is the new label for the following neonicotinoids: imidacloprid, dinotefuran, clothianidin and thiamethoxam.

    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/ecosys...fo-graphic.pdf

    "This product can kill bees and other insect pollinators".

    That's pretty clear.

    If you don't agree with the label, I don't see that there's a rational argument to be made.

    Suppression of dissenters, or the fringe, refers to political aspect of this.

    This kind of a thread is more political than anything else. Especially since last week.

    I've lost track of how many different groups are suing the EPA over neonics, but they're going to start dealing with persistent sources of misinformation.

    As for open dissenters, if they're part of a sponsoring organization, that's easily fixed.

    This is all political in my view.

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