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  1. #281
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So, it's about me and not the neonics?
    You have made it so. You have spent the last couple of pages attempting to way overblow your own achievements while at the same time rubbish everybody else. So, you took part in a freshwater invertebrate survey. Any moron could have done that. So, you read the Morrisey report. Any moron could have done that. So, you looked at a chemical formula and identified that it contained a nicitinoid. Any moron could have done that. Etc. Etc.... Don't complain when others find you shallow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    just to remind you WLC, her study is only in its early stages. Lots ahead on that one. You speak of that study as if it has already been completed scrutinized and through all the channels. To understand her finding and react to them we have to know what they are first. ... but I'm sure your not really interested in "actual" facts, bits and clips of facts seem to satisfy your "professional" opinions
    This sums up the problem I have with so much of WLC's writings, the innuendo, and 1/2 truths. referencing this study to make it appear it backs his beliefs is absolutely typical of the arguments presented ever since he started going on about neonics.

    The truth is that in his hundreds of posts on the subject there is almost nothing of any significance and I don't know why he is allowed to even get away with it. Maybe because virtually everybody can see through it so it doesn't matter. Don't know.

    To WLC in particular. Ranting about neonics with no alternative is pointless. Neonicitinoids are insecticides and can therefore harm bees. But we know that already. We already know they can harm invertebrates and we already know they are environmental contaminants. You bring nothing new to the table, apart from a raft of exaggeration and innuendo. Most of the old poisons do the same things and more so. So since you are unaware of any viable options, you cannot achieve anything.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #282
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    And your not siting these US studies over Dr. Morrissey premature findings?
    citing.
    They've been cited over and over here on BeeSource.
    "You can lead a horse to water..."

  3. #283
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    OT:

    It's WLC 'you' this, and WLC 'you' that.

    It's not about me.

    It's about the impact of neonicotinoid pesticides on the environment, including pollinators.

    However, I would expand the term 'pollinators' by saying invertebrates if this wasn't a beekeeping forum.

    "The truth is that in his hundreds of posts on the subject there is almost nothing of any significance and I don't know why he is allowed to even get away with it. Maybe because virtually everybody can see through it so it doesn't matter. Don't know."

    My response to that is, "The Psychopathy of the Beekeeper/Exterminator". It's a title for a new letter that I'd like to write to 'Psychology Today'.

    My first choice as a replacement technology to neonicotinoid pesticides would be RNAi.
    Last edited by WLC; 02-24-2014 at 12:40 AM.

  4. #284
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    As previously explained there are as many or more issues with RNAi than there are with neonicitinoids, in the court of public opinion it would be frying pan, to the fire.

    Re environmental contamination, is it that you think non neonicitinoid poisons do not contaminate the environment? Cos if that's what you are implying or saying, you'd be wrong. I'm somewhat surprised that level of learning was not included in the claimed biology degree.

    You write letters to "Psychology Today"? That is the funniest thing you have posted this page I would love to see what you say to them, care to share?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 02-24-2014 at 03:26 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #285
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    As previously explained there are as many or more issues with RNAi than there are with neonicitinoids, in the court of public opinion it would be frying pan, to the fire.
    There are already some crops that they have discovered have characteristics caused by RNAi. RNAi pesticide protected crops would be new though.

    Re environmental contamination, is it that you think non neonicitinoid poisons do not contaminate the environment? Cos if that's what you are implying or saying, you'd be wrong. I'm somewhat surprised that level of learning was not included in the claimed biology degree.
    There's a whole range of undesirable properties that neonics, like clothiadinin, have that you don't find in other pesticides. It's water solubility and long half life are two of its main drawbacks. It's ubiquitous use in seed coats is another.

    By the way, I consider the "more dangerous replacements" argument to be a straw-man argument. It's not factual.

  6. #286
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Yes RNAi adjusted crops would be a publicity nightmare probably more so than neonics. Probably why we are sticking with neonics.

    You are wrong about the undesirable characteristics of neonicitinoids because as previously explained the "old" insecticides are formulated to dissolve in water so your argument on that score is moot. Also some of the "old" pesticides have even longer 1/2 life than some neonics so your argument on that score is moot too. I thought the claimed biology degree would have covered stuff like that, perhaps a handlers certificate would help?

    Also I have already been through all that, do you actually read anything anyone else says?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #287
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Yes I do. So should you.

    It can be very difficult for some U.S. farmers to buy seed that doesn't come with a clothidinin seed coat.
    There have been studies publishes that show that over 90% of the pesticide in seed coats ends up in the soil, and not in the plant, and there have been additional studies showing that sprayed neonics are not only more effective, but cause less contamination issues.

    Didn't that information come with your applicator's license? Or, is your license so old, they chiseled it on a slate?

  8. #288
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It can be very difficult for some U.S. farmers to buy seed that doesn't come with a clothidinin seed coat.
    Well first off if I wanted to learn about clothianidin I would want to talk to someone who could at least spell it.

    And, you still don't read what I say. I have already stated that I would be happy to see clothianidin phased out. My reason for that is the long 1/2 life. The proviso would be that it is not replaced with something even worse. So your comments re my applicators license are once again, moot. We seem to be covering the same ground over and over you learn nothing, keep repeating the same misinformation, and bring nothing new to the table.

    If you have anything useful to say, please go ahead.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 02-24-2014 at 04:34 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #289
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Want to learn something new?

    The EU ban was for neonic seed coats on certain crops.

    It's not that they're completely banning neonics, it's just in certain crop seeds.

    The main underlying issue with neonics has become IPM.

    Since most seeds still come with a neonic seed coat, and isn't IPM, the issue has become the widespread prophylactic use of neonics, and the environmental impact that it can have.

    So, now the discussion has become how do we switch from planting every seed with a neonic coat to the IPM role of neonics.

    Frankly, a farmer like IAN could better explain how easily it could be done.

  10. #290
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post

    1.Ranting about neonics with no alternative is pointless. Neonicitinoids are insecticides and can therefore harm bees.

    2. We already know they can harm invertebrates and we already know they are environmental contaminants. You bring nothing new to the table,

    3. Most of the old poisons do the same things and more so. So since you are unaware of any viable options, you cannot achieve anything.
    1. has to be about one of the most ludicrous arguments I have heard? You should not recognize a problem unless you know the solution. I hope you do not have children or that any of them ever get ill. Not everyone is assumed to recognize the problem there is far more than adequate reason to speak of it.

    2. So even you recognize that nics are harmful, Even likely to be harmful to bees.

    3. Unacceptable behaviors in the past do not excuse unacceptable behaviors today. Being less unacceptable is not enough. Let the growers suffer the losses of the pests and diseases that effect their crops. Not push those losses off on beekeepers and others.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #291
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Want to learn something new?
    What in that is new? Some of that is old news, and some is just your own (poorly thought out) opinion.

    Nothing new there.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #292
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    So even you recognize that nics are harmful, Even likely to be harmful to bees.
    Of course. Why do activists keep trying to paint me and others as something we are not? Before trying to pin a label on someone at least find out what they have said / believe.

    I think the activists want a world where there are 2 types. Activists = good guys. Everybody else = neonicitinoid swilling bee haters. Wrong theory.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #293
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Frankly, a farmer like IAN could better explain how easily it could be done.
    funny how these type of studies are being done in Canada, where as our Neonic usage has not changed for 15 years and we generally have cereal rotations to break up the neonic using crops. where as in the US, the neonic usage has increased by folds as corn has adopted this treatment, along with soybeans, and put into a corn soybean corn soybean rotation.

    Canada is a small fish beside a big fish tank. You would figure these studies would be done where the product is used almost exclusively.

    never the less, we have been using this treatment on our canola since the early 90's, or whenever they took Counter-5-G off the market.

    It will be interesting to see the results from this wetland study. I have a intensive wetland study being done on my farm's wet lands, looking at nutrient loading. It will be interesting to see how much of this treatment product is moving within our soils, and how much is moving with runoff waters and through ground water drainage.

    WLC, our wetlands on our farm are healthy, infact thriving. There is a difference between farmers who manage wetlands and farmers who don't. And the resulting health of those wetlands is a directly result of such. Just like anything else, there are many factors which needs to be considered before making those broad sweeping statements, as you are.

    Let the results speak for themselves, and if there is something there, perhaps we can manage the product differently to avoid these issues. Because thats what it is all about right? Finding solutions!

    Steps are being taken in the Ag industry ( in Canada anyway ) with the dry flowable on the seeds. I forget what my brother ( the crop manager ) exactly said but he said they are having to switch to a new product which will help eliminate most all the dust while seeding. This is an initiative brought about actual study and researcher/farmer/beekeeper/chemical company cooperation. Problems were found ( however isolated ) and solutions were found.

    WLC, finding solutions from problems that arise. Thats the whole point. Your missing the whole point
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #294
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Its this researcher/farmer/beekeeper/chemical company cooperation that needs to be focused on here. This is where we find solutions. But anytime there is total cooperation "lobby" groups start screaming to the hill top! You see, these lobby groups are not interested in anything but the end of all chemical use period. Lobby groups are not looking for solutions, all they do is make noise and confuse the issues. And that is exactly what you are doing here WLC. If you remove chemicals from the equation, what is planned to replace them to manage our issues? Because the alternative is less production, less food, less quality food, $$$ groceries.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #295
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post

    WLC, our wetlands on our farm are healthy, infact thriving. There is a difference between farmers who manage wetlands and farmers who don't. And the resulting health of those wetlands is a directly result of such. Just like anything else, there are many factors which needs to be considered before making those broad sweeping statements, as you are.

    Let the results speak for themselves, and if there is something there, perhaps we can manage the product differently to avoid these issues. Because thats what it is all about right? Finding solutions!

    Steps are being taken in the Ag industry ( in Canada anyway ) with the dry flowable on the seeds. I forget what my brother ( the crop manager ) exactly said but he said they are having to switch to a new product which will help eliminate most all the dust while seeding. This is an initiative brought about actual study and researcher/farmer/beekeeper/chemical company cooperation. Problems were found ( however isolated ) and solutions were found.

    WLC, finding solutions from problems that arise. Thats the whole point. Your missing the whole point
    Ian, you are a wise and thoughtful person.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

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