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Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

60K views 294 replies 37 participants last post by  sqkcrk 
#1 ·
I have listened to many of the arguments off Neonics and Imiclorpids and GMO from all sorts of sources, seems most of them live in NY, Oregon, or CA.

Well I don't I live in the MIDDLE of the area with the HIGHEST combination of the 3 pesticides. But whats really hit me yesterday was how foolish the claims are. And heres why. The town I live in is right at 3 square miles of surface area. 5000 people. Yesterday I did another cutout for the electric company. Its my 5th this year for the city. All of them good strong typical hives. But keep in mind, These cutouts are only in trees that threaten power lines. Yard trees are not included. and I am positively aware of at least 3 other wild hives in the same area. which makes 8 in a 3 square mile area, THAT I KNOW OF. That is better than 2 colonies per square mile of FERAL bees


Just useing that number there are around 120,000 feral hives statewide. not counting the roughly 150k in domestic colonies est. to be in the state.
2 feral colonies per square mile IN TOWN, in the area of the highest neonics in the world...

And so far I have been to Bee meetings in most of southern IL at least once.... so far there has not been a single case of CCD reported.
Bees are fine and healthy.... and more than 2 feral hives per square mile is FINE..... its all the forage they can handle in this part of the country. 80% monoculture will not support more bees than that.
 
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#2 ·
those are not feral bees. they are swarms from other managed bee hives. and just because they seem fine and healthy right now does not mean much.
I can tell you first hand that the bees most definitely are effected by these neonics just as they have been by all the chems used in the past many years. neonics just stay around longer and the systemic ones are around and available for poisoning for a few months.
The reason you are not seeing the effects this year is because of the ample amount of rain that has been falling.
120k feral hives in IL, ha that's a laugh. those hives will parish from mites soon enough.
 
#6 ·
The scientific consensus is that pesticide exposure is a contributing factor to Honeybee losses.

So, the OP's post represents a minority viewpoint.

With major Beekeeping organizations and others currently suing the EPA, that minority viewpoint is not in my own best interests.

I would also say that it's not in the best interests of U.S. beekeepers or of the public.

I can't find a good reason for a U.S. beekeeper to make such an opinion known in at this time while representatives of large numbers of beekeepers are locked in a conflict with the EPA over neonicotinoids.

Why speak out against your own best interests?

WLC.
 
#8 ·
Why speak out against your own best interests?

WLC.
The entire "scientific community" also knew that...

Blacks were intellectually inferior...

Homosexuality was a mental disorder...

Ice pick lobotomies was good medicine..

and humans are to blame for the ice caps melting.

My point is we have no clue why CCD is prevalent and I'm not about to jump on a bandwagon that will legislate us to death.

Are Neonics to blame...o.k. fine...Show me the evidence.
 
#9 ·
The EPA is saying that neonics are a contributing factor in colony losses.

(I don't think that they had anything to do with the above low points in science.)

Swarms could simply be a sign that thee are a lot of 'swarmy bee' genetics around.
Or, worse, there are plenty of bees absconding from contaminated hives.

I wouldn't say that it's a sign that 'the coast is clear', or not.
 
#11 ·
thanks Sqk, that was my point for asking Mnbees. Once bees swarm and set up a hive in the wild they are refered to as feral. Wlc I think we all get your point that pesticides kill bees, however, IMHO there is not enough evidence to say it is neonics alone. There is probably a variety of causes and combinations thereof. MTA was supposed to clean up gasoline emissions and we pushed ahead hard on that and guess what after several years use we found it contaminated ground water. So lets move slow consider all view points and get this right.
 
#26 ·
thanks Sqk, that was my point for asking Mnbees. Once bees swarm and set up a hive in the wild they are refered to as feral.
Jeff,
I haven't finished reading Randy Oliver's article in this month's ABJ titled "Refelections on the Honey Bee Health Summit" yet, but Randy has a better answer than I gave you. As usual there is more too it than my simplemind can think up on its own. On the 4th page, middle column, third paragraph it reads:
"Concurrently, there is also a rebounding population of "wild type" feral and survivor colonies in many areas. These bees tend to be locally adapted, resilient, and have apparently worked out how to deal with the varroa/virus complex."

If you don't have a copy of this magazine get one. If you have a copy, read this article if you don't read anything else this month. I'm going to try to read it twice.

WLC, you too. U and Solomon. You can subscribe to the online version of ABJ.

Sidenote: Interestingly Kim Flottum thinks varroavirus should be one word and Randy Oliver sees varroa/virus as almost insperable in modern beekeeping.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
WLC, your just a .... Pawn for legislation..... You wouldn't last 5 minutes out here.......

I think one of the things that is really interesting is I know my numbers are really low. I am only dealing with the hives I KNOW of.. I doubt that I really know about even half....

We also have a guy here who runs about 30 hives, he gets all of his from swarms... and he looses 90% every year (lousey beek) so he gets more swarm calls than I do (thankfully)

So here in the middle of noenics, fungicides, GMO, and imaclorpids. bees are thriving... WLC your scientist are IDIOTS.... real world evidence shows them to be fools. (moderators) the idiot was directed at Researchers in general not WLC)
 
#15 ·
#20 ·
many thanks jim for this excellent link.

i was unaware of the national survey until now. i'm happy to see the money being spent and these questions being examined. looks like this research has an excellent shot at giving us some solid answers.

but if we get them, we might not have anything to quibble about on beesource. :)
 
#17 ·
Gmcharlie why would you ever defend something like that? i mean are you a beekeeper or not. If you read research or have enough hands on experience you would know that in general the bees aren't as healthy as they could be and many people have proven that neonics contribute to that.
And yes thank you for stating the obvious that there are a combination of factors.

I keep bees in the heart of farmland just like you are referring to, and yes they are healthy for now.
but this is simple science we are talking about.

systemic corn seeds are planted, then they grow tassels and produce poison pollen. if no rain falls the poison pollen blows around in the wind onto sweet clover, the bees gather some of that pollen and store it away to later feed young.

Feral bees aren't feral until they successfully swarm and raise a new queen on their own and survive for more than one season. but then who's to say how they are able to mate. i mean if they are only able to mate because of managed drones in the area then to me that's not feral.

"real world evidence shows researchers to be fools" that is the most ridiculous thing i think i have heard on beesource yet!!
let me guess you keep 100 hives and you have it all figured out. try keeping thousands alive, changes the playing field a bit
 
#18 ·
Jim,

Thanks for posting the link to that report. Interesting results.

It looks like the one common factor between the vast majority of hives is the presence of varroa.

When looking at which pesticides were found it was not surprising that the most common were ones that could be used, legally or illegally for mite control. I was surprised to see how common chlorpyrifos was found. It is not one of the insecticides we hear blamed for bee deaths now days. It is an organophosphate with a pretty good residual life. I liked to use it as a flea dip for my dog when I lived in Florida.

Tom
 
#21 ·
Samplings from our hives were included in the survey. We were at about the 50th percentile for varroa yet have not had any high bee loss issues. We do no spring treatments aside from requeening and I am going to guess the majority of participants are doing some sort of spring treatment. One concern that I have is the varroa results may be skewed because it's not possible to do sampling on the same date for everyone. Some may be post and some may be Pre treatment, some earlier, some later. As a big picture I think the results tell a lot but there may be wide variations case by case.
We also had no chemical residues of any kind show up in our pollen samples (beekeeper applied or otherwise). Our virus numbers were all near mid range.
 
#23 ·
No clothiadin detected?

That's odd.

Nevertheless, it's a moot point with the new neonic labels being announce by the EPA.

They're hazardous to bees.
I don't understand why there is no data negative or otherwise. My individual results (if I remember correctly) showed n.d. For Clothianidin yet the cumulative results don't list it. I wondered myself and I have no explanation.
 
#24 ·
if you look closer at the study jim posted you will see the very high amounts of Diflubenzuron and the scary one is Thiacloprid.(neonic)

Another high one that is supposed to be safe is Imidacloprid(systemic neonic)

the table at the bottom should be studied closely and see that the range is much different then the average. one cannot know where the bees were sampled and that is why the data range is important.

I personally have been part of this study for two years and am awaiting this years results.


Imidacloprid is one of the most toxic insecticides to bees. and some samples were over 200 parts per billion.
so not only is it the worst it is available for months. the old boom sprayers can be avoided, just think of the corn now, it is the boom sprayer, spraying daily for months.
 
#25 ·
In a broader context, including all of the other contributing factors to honeybee losses, we all have our own personal beliefs.

For instance, my own background would predispose me to believe that the spillover of a virus, like DWV, into other native pollinators is a major threat.

But, when it comes to neonics, it's the consensus, and more to the point, the label, that matters.

I wouldn't get too attached to a product that needs fixing or replacing.

There's no benefit.
 
#27 ·
here's the 2013 project plan from the aphis website:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/plant_pest_info/honey_bees/downloads/SurveyProjectPlan.pdf

another good read.

from this publication:

"Current theories about the cause(s) of CCD and increased colony mortality generally include Varroa mite parasitism; new or emerging diseases, especially mortality by a new Nosema species (e.g., Nosema ceranae), a newly evolved and more virulent strains of Varroa mite vectored bee viruses; sublethal pesticide exposures (through exposure to pesticides applied for crop pest control or for in-hive insect or mite control); and poor nutrition (due to reduced forage lands caused by increased corn mono-cropping and changes in agricultural practices). These factors, alone or in combination, are thought to suppress bees’ immune systems, making them susceptible to a host of pathogens, which in turn causes increased mortality."

(bold emphasis on 'theories' and 'are thought' added)

these experts are stating very clearly that they know what they don't know, and imho they are on the right track to sorting it out.
 
#29 ·
i don't know mark. and i don't think anyone really does at this point.

seems like i have read that the incidence of bona fide ccd has been declining over these past few years, but i can't remember where i read it.
 
#30 ·
What I have heard reported from the Apiary Inspectors of America is that of the 30% dieoff, 5% was due to CCD or CCD related factors. The other 25% was due to starvation, diseases, viruses, and other factors. Most of these things can be addressed through management. CCD gets the attention because it is sexy.

Who is going before Congress asking for moneys to study the other things killing our bees?

Pesticides don't come into play because virtually no one reported any pesticide exposure mortality to the proper authorities. No reports, no problems.
 
#35 ·
Rbees - really are you going to go back to the ages when we didn't think we could break the sound barrier and use those thought processes of an ignorant age to point to what science states.

We now have DNA sequenced, are pointing to which alleles contribute to certain diseases, they are grafting tissue to grow heart valves for replacements, and we shouldn't really use those statements as factors to point to what modern science understands.

I am certain that in another 20 years those in the know will understand much of this. Or maybe 50 years. But we sure shouldn't use the of age of ignorant to enlighten our thought processes today.

But it does seem like there is lots of opinions here that are not backed by peer reviewed literature and yet are accepted as sound science.

This is poor use of science, but follows the lines of what the world press does on regular basis.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I'm going to give you my own analysis of what the new neonic labels really mean.

The American farmer has been left holding the bag for the EPA and the pesticide industry.

So, now when beekeepers sue, you're liable for applicator error.

The EPA and the industry are exonerated by the new labels.

Why some of you have taken the position that you have is inexplicable.

You need to change your position.
 
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