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  1. #181
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    It's common in many insecticides. Pyrethrum, widely regarded as natural and relatively safe, in fact is irreversibly absorbed into human nerve cells, of which the brain is built.

    As an aside to that, no actual harm as a result has ever been demonstrated, but me, I don't use it in the house.

    That's one of the beauties of some neonictiniods being hundreds of times stronger against insects than some of the old insecticides. It means that hundreds times less is used but still be effective, much better in many ways.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #182
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Hmmm. The Germans, (known for their scientific leanings and actually the home of Bayer), the French, others in the European Union have been influenced by "political pressure". What about the UK? Its a country in decline from a once great power, and a kettle pot of political dissent and disagreement yet they have gone on record supporting the continued use of neonics. The UK has gone on record as opposing the Eurozone's partial and temporary ban on neonics. Your statement makes no sense.

    Now you seem to be a man (or woman) of science, what is your take on the fact that the EPA in the USA has never granted more than a conditional approval and that the neonics are currently under re-review by the State of California Department of Pesticide Regulation?

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    I am not judging you wrong, I dont even know whether neonics are truly as unsafe as some claim. You have claimed that neonics are unconditionally safer compared to other past pesticides. At least I am honest and can say that I don't know. I wish the incontrovertible testing on these pesticides would be performed to show they are as safe as you claim them to be.

  4. #184
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Why should a fella living in midtown Manhattan have to worry about neonics?

    I've found out that when they use imidacloprid to treat trees for beetles in Central Park, the dose is effective for 4 years!

    Where do you think my bees get most of their early pollen from?

    I've also found out that horticultural plants are sold containing neonics.

    So, now I get to worry about all of those large horticultural displays as well as terrace gardens.

    There are plenty of urban beekeepers who think that they don't have to worry about the effects that neonics are having on their bees, but that's not the case. It's everywhere.

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Most treated seeds, in horticulture, are covered with fungicides. I was not aware that any had neonic coatings. Care to share some plants that tend to have it, or suppliers that tend to do this?
    Last edited by Barry; 02-23-2014 at 09:13 AM. Reason: quoting
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  6. #186
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Dominic, not seeds but potted/trayed plants, like the ones people purchase at the garden centers of some large chain stores. There were some petitions making the rounds to get the stores to stop selling neonic treated plants. I don't know the outcome offhand though.

    So, imagine that you buy the usual spring annuals for your garden, but there's nothing indicating that they were treated with neonics.

    Here's a related link:

    http://www.care2.com/greenliving/low...kill-bees.html
    Last edited by WLC; 02-22-2014 at 06:39 AM.

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Rubbish. The assumption that neonics are 100 times more powerful and therefore used 100X less is false. There are no controls on the household applications (nor even the ag applications other than seed coatings) and it has been shown in residential usage the actual applications of neonics in those environments can be 100X the amounts necessary. Contracted landscapers routinely blanket plants, lawns etc with certain neonic products to save reapplication labor costs. They are applied all over the place without limitations. You still havent answered my question regarding your thoughts on the fact that the neonics have never been thoroughly reviewed by the EPA. And yes I do keep bees.

  8. #188
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    And you have proof of this over-application by 100X?

    Neonics typically are only applied once a growing season since they are systemic and once taken up are not washed off.

    If you have real knowledge of commercial applicators violating product labels it would only take one phone call to your local regulatory agency to get that stopped. To suggest that that there are no controls is false. When I worked in extension and taught pesticide applicator training courses I found all perticipants were eager to apply pesticicdes correctly.

    Typically, homeowners tend to be the ones who over apply pesticides. Labels on products are very specific in how they are to be applied. Not everyone reads of follows those labels. But, I wouldn't assume that everyone over-applies products either.

    If you are seeing violations of laws you should report it!

    Tom
    Last edited by Barry; 02-23-2014 at 09:14 AM. Reason: quoting

  9. #189
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Didn't know that was your field TWall.

    I too am a qualified applicator and have to do reading, do courses, pass exams and spend money annually to keep that updated. Which is why I tend to get dragged into these types of threads cos I just get sick of reading the appalling ignorance on display, and I do mean appalling. I am not especially "pro neonics" or much of the other labels people like to pin, just pro science and common sense, over emotionalism.

    GreatGabber re your hundred x's question, look at the formulations, not how much water is sprayed.

    Just some background on me cos most won't know this I had to give up commercial beekeeping for some years due to a back injury and during that time did several things including running a pest control business. My back gradually healed itself so now I am back in bees at a semi retirement level, and pleased to be mostly out of pest control although still have a few contracts & keep up my certification.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #190
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    I can tell you probably havent used your bees for commercial pollination where growers apply pesticides. In California they can't even get some growers not to apply pesticides when bees are in an orchard for pollination, or even notify beeks when they are going to apply. All of which I am sure there are laws against but not enforced. Growers are the customers of beeks and beeks do not wish to upset the apple cart of their relationship. That is how they dont get reported. I am sure there are laws against this but who is out there to enforce them?

    Here's another example of an unenforced law. Beekeepers are required in California to be licensed by their County Agricultural Department. Before the disappearance of bees occurred in the past 10 or so years, they would come out and inspect hives for foulbrood in the spring when hives were first opened. Zoom ahead to today when losses are catastrophic, and they dont do any of that anymore. They have thrown up their hands and gone away, when they should use their position to study the actual causes of bee loss, now more than ever, whether do to the varoa mite or neonics etc. But the fact is they don't want to know.

    Regarding household landscapers and professionals that do this, I have talked to some and few pay much attention to labels. Some don't even read the labels beyond what is necessary for their own safety. Do I have a study that proves that? No, but I do have common sense and anecdotal experience. The one thing I can agree with you is that homeowners do over apply their pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    And you have proof of this over-application by 100X?

    Neonics typically are only applied once a growing season since they are systemic and once taken up are not washed off.

    If you have real knowledge of commercial applicators violating product labels it would only take one phone call to your local regulatory agency to get that stopped. To suggest that that there are no controls is false. When I worked in extension and taught pesticide applicator training courses I found all perticipants were eager to apply pesticicdes correctly.

    Typically, homeowners tend to be the ones who over apply pesticides. Labels on products are very specific in how they are to be applied. Not everyone reads of follows those labels. But, I wouldn't assume that everyone over-applies products either.

    If you are seeing violations of laws you should report it!

    Tom

  11. #191
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    None of which is any reason to ban neonics and switch to something else.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #192
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    You know, Oldtimer, you would be a lot more honest to the people on this blog if you would please include a short blurb regarding your current status as a qualified applicator of pesticides, right next to the bottom line on all your messages "44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly)".

    You give the appearance that you are a well experienced beekeeper but no indication where your current financial motives come from now, presumably applying and selling pesticides. You ridiculed me when I sincerely asked if you had a dog in this fight when I asked you why you were so certain that neonics were not a problem to the bees. Now its obvious and the truth has come out by your own admission. You, not I, should be banned from this blog. Remember when you suggested that I might be banned from this blog because I appeared to be so against neonics, alluding that I might be a former blogger on here that was banned for that reason? I think dishonesty on this board, not your personal opinion, is a justifiable reason for banning some one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Didn't know that was your field TWall.

    I too am a qualified applicator and have to do reading, do courses, pass exams and spend money annually to keep that updated. Which is why I tend to get dragged into these types of threads cos I just get sick of reading the appalling ignorance on display, and I do mean appalling. I am not especially "pro neonics" or much of the other labels people like to pin, just pro science and common sense, over emotionalism.

    GreatGabber re your hundred x's question, look at the formulations, not how much water is sprayed.

    Just some background on me cos most won't know this I had to give up commercial beekeeping for some years due to a back injury and during that time did several things including running a pest control business. My back gradually healed itself so now I am back in bees at a semi retirement level, and pleased to be mostly out of pest control although still have a few contracts & keep up my certification.

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    This is a blog?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  14. #194
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    greatgabber: what kind of a scientist are you?

  15. #195
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Just what I wondered clyde.

    Let's see, Oldtimer w/ 41 years keeping bees and greatgabber w/ 6 years? Hmmm, who should I follow?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  16. #196
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Here's just one reason to consider banning neonics:

    "Neonicotinoid clothianidin adversely affects insect immunity and promotes replication of a viral pathogen in honey bees"

    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/46/18466.full

    OT: if you do have an applicator's license, either you're a farmer or an exterminator.

    greatgabber: Thanks for that post about OT.

  17. #197
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    No the neonics do not have to be a yes no question. The laws of competitive survival, in agriculture as in any other industry will be the final arbiter to the question "are neonics safe for bees when properly used?"

    If the studies that are underway in Eurozone and other places where neonics have been limited or banned, AND they show a healthier bee population as a result, those countries and regions of the world that have done such will have an eventual competitive economic advantage over those who ignor their results. Unfortunately, many bees and beekeepers will be lost in the interim if such is the case. I have asked this question already, but how can those who standby the use of neonics do it in a way so adamantly when the EPA has never given the clear green light that these pesticides are in fact safe for bees? Is it just because there is nothing better? Is it because it is such and effective and lethal insecticide to the target species with no thought to what may be happening to non-targeted species?




    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    There are more than enough alternatives. In Europa there are many organic farms and they all see pesticides only as a very last resort. And if they treat, they treat with an alternative pesticide that does the least harm. So what's the problem about alternatives? Can't see, why neonics are a have to have/use?

  18. #198
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by greatgabber View Post
    You know, Oldtimer, you would be a lot more honest to the people on this blog if you would please include a short blurb regarding your current status as a qualified applicator of pesticides,...
    You give the appearance that you are a well experienced beekeeper but no indication where your current financial motives come from now, presumably applying and selling pesticides.
    ... You, not I, should be banned from this blog.
    You want Oldtimer banned from this blog because you think he sells pesticides?? How bout following through with that statement and also ban activists from this blog ... hmm, do we know of any activists on this blog
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #199
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    OT: if you do have an applicator's license, either you're a farmer or an exterminator.
    Isn't that what I just said? To repeat, for some years I ran a pest control business.

    Your genius at stating the obvious astounds me.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #200
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    Default Re: Why/how I know the Anti Neonics guys are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by greatgabber View Post
    You give the appearance that you are a well experienced beekeeper but no indication where your current financial motives come from now, presumably applying and selling pesticides.
    Emphasis presumably. You have over speculated.

    Quote Originally Posted by greatgabber View Post
    You ridiculed me when I sincerely asked if you had a dog in this fight when I asked you why you were so certain that neonics were not a problem to the bees.
    Your question was ridicule worthy because I have never said I am certain neonicitiniods are not a problem to bees. Your question was designed to imply a falsehood and received the answer it was worthy of.

    Quote Originally Posted by greatgabber View Post
    Now its obvious and the truth has come out by your own admission. You, not I, should be banned from this blog.
    Just lucky you not a moderator LOL. . My guess is that with your obvious propensity towards use of any powers if you had them, you never will be a moderator, either.
    Re "the truth", I have mentioned my involvement in extermination before, no hidden secrets there.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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