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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Keep trying. It takes time to find the stuff you want.
    Mike I'm disappointed that you have once again turned what I hoped would be a promising discussion into absurdity. We have already been through this discussion, that when you present one of your theories, it is not my job to prove it, it is yours.

    To be even more clear. I think two of your theories are wrong, and are not in any scientific literature, contrary to what you have told us. You will not prove otherwise by telling me to go look for it. Why would I continue looking for something that does not exist.

    How would you react if I presented some unproven theory, claimed it was in scientific literature, then if you queried me on it, I told you that you had to go look for the proof not me. Well the answer is you would decide I never knew what I was talking about in the first place of course.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-17-2013 at 04:10 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post

    But let me state the following as it relates to honeybees. As mentioned in some study quoted in another thread earlier, honeybees are uniquely capable of adaptation against their parasite. Typically it is the parasite that has the advantage, but not so with the honeybee. The honeybee has demonstrated itself capable of adapting to this parasite in a relatively short period of time.
    Why then have we not seen it. How is it that bees did not simply adapt to Varroa causing it to be such an issue?

    I realize that one answer is that we treat, weakening the bees ability to adapt. What mechanisms are being weakened and how?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    If that's the best you got, well, no reasonable person could buy your theory.
    You'll just have to think of it as a lead for now. Take it or leave it. I'll undertake to share it with you if I bump into it, and if I remember, and if you haven't irritated me too much. I'll hope I can expect the same of you.

    Apart from anything else its common sense! Do you think it needs every single patriline to exhibit every single mite-management behaviour? The more you have, the better things will be, up to a point where that's no longer the case. (Over-expression of some traits brings undesirable costs - bees are uncapping too much when they should be getting in honey or something of that sort. That's something else I've read in the literature, and I can't direct you to it. I think its attached to Marla Spivak's work in my mind, but I'm not 100% sure. It wasn't recently that I read it.)

    It can be difficult and frustrating and time consuming tracking down scientific items like this, and I sympathise with you. You really want to know, and you feel I'm much closer to the answer than you. Actually I'm probably not (though I might be).

    I often wish I was more of a catalogue type, but I'm not, I'm a skimmer, unless I'm working on a definite narrow project and I know I'll want a reference to hand.

    Mike (UK)
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Well I have exactly the same problem Mike, I read stuff and cannot remember the link to everything either.

    But on those particular theories, they are incorrect, they are not in any scientific literature, there is no evidence, and never will be. I will not be waiting until you "bump into it", I'll go with your "take it or leave it" advice, and leave it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Well I have exactly the same problem Mike, I read stuff and cannot remember the link to everything either.
    I've been studying this stuff sporadically, sometimes intensively, for 20 years. For about 5 of them I had access to academic journals; and often I've been sent papers by others that are only available to subscribers. Add to that: when trawling the net you often follow links to more links to more links, and end up in places that are not bought up by search engines.

    If I were inclined, my next step would probably be to use my on-computer search engine to look through my own collection. That might turn up a result quickly, it might not, I might spend 1/2 an hour on it and then give up.

    The context in which I saw it might come to me sometime in the next few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    But on those particular theories, they are incorrect, they are not in any scientific literature, there is no evidence, and never will be.
    I don't know where you learned logic. None of those entailments are valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I will not be waiting until you "bump into it", I'll go with your "take it or leave it" advice, and leave it.
    Suit yourself. And given your attitude I won't bother giving it any more attention.

    I'll give you some advice though: understand you don't need to understand all the infinite details. You need to understand, and apply, the principles.

    Mike (UK)
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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Well good that's over, anyway.

    And as I suspected your statements remain unsupported.

    I'm hoping it means that we don't have to listen to any more of you telling us all what an incredibly well formed character you are, get's rather tedious from someone who can never back anything.

    When you are ready for a sensible discussion about bees, let's know. I like practicle bee stuff over unsupported theories any day.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    I'm wondering how it can work that a hive can survive treatment free with so many different paternal lines of bees in the hive is it luck of the draw that all or most the drones the queen has mated with are mite tolerant or is it enough that only the queen shows those traits?
    So the question is then: how many individual bees of the total population need a mixture of traits necessary to keep the hive afloat? How many then does it take to make the hive thrive?



    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    Another thought is how can a colony adjust/adapt to mites when the individual bees themselves live for such a short period.
    The colony doesn't and nobody says it does. That's why there needs to be birth and death. If this hive doesn't have what it takes, it dies. If it does, I multiply it. The next generation faces the same test. While it's easy to crash at first, it becomes statistically less likely as time goes on.



    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    And lastly is it feasable that you could keep your bees without treatments up until they started to show symptoms of mite problems and then treat and repeat meaning you leave your bees to deal with mites until they are over run but rather than letting them be over run and die you stop the mite the bees recover and as the mites build up again the bees are left to deal with them etc etc thereby giving the bees longterm exposure to mites but maybe building up some sort of defence against them.
    Firstly, I hear from the commercial beekeepers that by the time they are overrun, it's too late for any treatment. But secondly, without the cycle of birth and death, there is no winnowing and reordering to produce the mixture of traits necessary to survive and thrive.



    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    A bit like a flu vaccine
    No, not really at all.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Your mechanism is a testable hypothesis.
    A hypothesis test would collect mitoDNA (female lineage) and compare survival (or honey production or disease risk) amongst apiaries with different levels of variation. MitoDNA primers and characterization has become quasi-automatic and inexpensive. Your hypothesis could be tested.
    this sounds like it would be a good project for a graduate student. i believe i may be in a pocket where resistant traits have developed in the feral population. it would be interesting to know if markers could be identified for overall vigor and other desirable traits and then promoted in queen breeding programs.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    >Square peg writes: "to know if markers could be identified for overall vigor and other desirable traits"

    Some traits have been localized to particular genes -- the grooming behavior gene seems to have a homolog in the human gene that expresses in obsessive compulsive//autism disorders -- so primers and sequences are known. See: Tsurudaj, J.M., M.E. Arechavaleta-Velascoee, K.I. Alcala-Escamillaee, C.A. Robles-Riosee& G. J. Huntj - INVESTIGATING THE ROLE OF NEUREXIN I IN HONEY BEE MITE-GROOMING BEHAVIOR. QTL is the acronym for the process of detecting the segments of nuclear DNA that expresses traits, and Maria Spivak and others are working hard on this effort.

    I am a proposing a far more broader scheme -- in response to Solomon's prejudice toward an integrative process, where individual expression is less critical than some [amorphous] total fitness of the superorganism. And "overall vigor" is going to integrative. We want to test Solomon's theory with science, because otherwise he will simply trumpet his prejudice.

    Mitochondria DNA (mtDNA) is extra-sexual, and is only transmitted by the mother (it prescribes the metabolism of unfertilized eggs and is incorporated into the growing larvae). mtDNA is extra-sexual, but drones as haploid products of the mother posses mom's mitochondria. mtDNA drifts through somatic mutation, and is "clocked", distances between sequences can be use to approximate division in space and time. Netting a collection of drones would allow you to see the relative relatedness of the paternal line (they bear the maternal DNA, they just don't transmit it). This is a proxy, rather than direct measure of variation, but because mtDNA has been typed worldwide it is a robust measure of lineage. The hypothesis is "A greater number of patrilines present in an apiary predicts greater vigor measured by metric X".

    I will note, impishly, that Solomon's New Model formulation is directly in opposition to the M. Bush model. If I understand Bush's theory it is: "Local survivors have been winnowed to a very small set of resistant genotypes. This reduced founder population is a new racial genotype and can be amplified". The mtDNA hypothesis prediction of the M. Bush model is: "An apiary with greater vigor will have a very small set of patrilines because of their very recent selection pressure".

    A testable hypothesis using Bush model is also possible, and would predict, lower patriline variation, and apiaries in different regions to have very unrelated patrilines (due to local survivor founder effect).

    Now, I am going to make some popcorn and wait for Solomon to attack Bush because Solomon knows for certain his model is better.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    in dr. delaplane's presentation, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txZtQrMTeag , he cites a paper by tarpy and seeley that showed increased vigor (disease resistance) as drone matings approach 10, with diminished improvement after that.

    how does this relate to the above hypotheses that you propose testing.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    >Square peg writes: "to know if markers could be identified for overall vigor and other desirable traits"

    Some traits have been localized to particular genes -- the grooming behavior gene seems to have a homolog in the human gene that expresses in [...] I am a proposing a far more broader scheme -- in response to Solomon's prejudice toward an integrative process, where individual expression is less critical than some [amorphous] total fitness of the superorganism. And "overall vigor" is going to integrative.
    Who can follow that? K.I.S.S: What works works; that is: within a population, removal of the least able results in improvements in overall fitness in the next generation.

    As a beekeeper aiming to improve resistance and vigour year on year what I need to know is the best ways to maximise the probability of achieving those aims.

    Odd how so many people want to talk about technical details that have such limited bearing on bee husbandry. Its not rocket science. If you want to improve vigour and resistance take out the weakest, requeening from the best, and other steps to press the desired genes forward. The only thing worth discussing is the practical details of how best to do that. These, as noted, vary from setting to setting, and the effect of the various factors lead to different approaches.

    If you want to not improve or to weaken your stocks, don't.

    Listen to experience: "You don't need to know how it works: you just need to know that it works." John Kefuss.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 08-17-2013 at 11:47 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  12. #92
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Now, I am going to make some popcorn and wait for Solomon to attack Bush because Solomon knows for certain his model is better.
    You haven't been around here very long have you?

    I'm not sure what the New Model is, maybe you're trying to tie into NT Wright's New Perspective, I don't know. What I do know is that I have a set of observations for which I posit a hypothesis which I believe explains those observations. Michael Bush does similarly, a similar set of observations and a similar hypothesis. He puts more emphasis on small cell. I put more emphasis on breeding. It's really not that big a deal.



    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Blah blah. Yawn. Sorry. Who can follow that? Who cares?
    Friend, this is not acceptable and you need to knock it off.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    to quote chemguy's tagline:

    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous."

    obviously mike you haven't discovered yet that when it comes to bees what seems intuitive isn't necessarily borne out in practice.

    it is estimated that it took 150 years for a. ceranae and v. jacobsconi to reach a host/parasite equilibrium. fortunately neither became extinct in the process.

    let us know when (by your excellent husbandry) your bees have reached this point.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Square Peg writes:
    "tarpy and seeley that showed increased vigor (disease resistance) as drone matings approach 10"
    and Delaplane finds better performance at up to 60 artificial matings.

    We risk going off into the weeds here, because Solomon's New Model argues for selection at the apiary level (in bio-speak, Meta-population). The number of drone matings is at the super-organism level (i.e. organizationally below the meta-population), and genotype traits are usually thought of as the maternal line or hybrid crossings.

    I don't endorse Solomon's New Model, though I think it has a germ of really good insight. SNM (a 3-letter acronym with his name) essentially addresses the inbreeding depression that has accompanied the industrial production of Italian bees. A survey of mito-type for African lineage found a grand total of 6 mito-types in commercial apiaries from southern breeders. The specialization of queen breeding to a regional mass production has shrunk the available variation, quite predictably.

    A common thread for some successful beekeepers is their incorporation of diverse bloodlines (the anti-Italians). Is the disease resistance of these beekeepers in aggregate at the apiary level (TF or not) higher or lower, I don't know but this could be tested. Other beekeepers seem to practice husbandry that conserves bloodlines (TF or not), and this would form a separate testable group. This forms a 2x2 factorial matrix -- TF-Diverse, TF-Inbred, Treated-Diverse, and Treated-Inbred. There are enormously robust statistics for this sort of factorial design, so relatively small sample sizes would yield a result.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-17-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    it is estimated that it took 150 years for a. ceranae and v. jacobsconi to reach a host/parasite equilibrium.
    I'm going to get flack for doing this, deservedly, but by whom? Can we have a reference?

    In the early days there were lots of noises about how it will take European honeybees tens of thousands of years to adapt to varroa - and these partly underpinned the rationale for treating.

    If someone has made a proper study I'd like to see it. And I'd like to know most, how systematic continent-wide treatments figure as a variable. Because that factor is the key variable.

    Mike (UK)
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  16. #96
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    my apologies mike, i found that i misrepresented what was actually said here:

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/....16%20copy.pdf

    it would have been better to have said that the russian strain has had 150 years in developing its measurable resistance against mites.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    i think i get that jwc, thanks.

    we have an excellent agricultural university here, (auburn), and i was thinking about approaching them to see if they were interested in doing some metrics on my treatment free apiary.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I think two of your theories are wrong, and are not in any scientific literature, contrary to what you have told us.
    Here is the reference you require for the item about only a few patrilines being needed. My emphasis:

    "Queen honey bee mates to c. 10 males. Colony can be hygienic if only 1
    or 2 patrilines are hygienic
    . Only 10% or 20% queens reared will be of
    hygienic patrilines unless intracolony selection is used."

    Hygienic Behaviour
    School of Life Sciences
    University of Sussex
    Francis L. W. Ratnieks

    pg 92 of slide show: http://localhost:8020/file/C%3A/2010...viour.pptx.pdf

    (It seems clear that the second statement is using the mating number supplied by the first, i.e. IF the queen mates with 10 drones resulting in just 1 or 2 hygienic patrilines, then the chances of paternally passed hygienic genes in the next generation is just 10% or 20%. This does not bear specifically on our narrow issue - its a supplementary item as far as I can see)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    How would you react if I presented some unproven theory, claimed it was in scientific literature, then if you queried me on it, I told you that you had to go look for the proof not me. Well the answer is you would decide I never knew what I was talking about in the first place of course.
    Well, yes you're right. But a reasonable correspondent would acknowledge that it isn't always easy to do. Now you have the reference I hope you will have the grace to amend your intemperate remarks.

    If I turn up any further references to the same issue I'll pass them on - more to preserve my reputation than to help you mind. Meanwhile, the following might supply you with a lead to further literature. If you consider the bit I've emboldened you'll see that tells the same story, by implication:

    Individuals within a honey bee colony have variation in relatedness and
    heritable traits due to the polyandrous mating behavior of the queen. This
    results in different patrilines, which can reduce the probability of individuals in
    a colony sharing alleles. Although some individuals may possess mite resistant
    genes, if not enough individuals share this genotype it will not influence the
    resistance at the colony level
    (Perez-Sato et al., 2009). Therefore, colony level
    phenotypes are less consistent in the expression of traits in the next generation
    and may require strong selection on drones in the population to ensure that
    many patrilines share a particular trait. Controlling the paternal source is the
    most difficult part of selective breeding programs with honey bees. This may
    explain why artificial selection has not yet been sustainably successful at
    producing mite-resistant honey bees and why natural selection, that includes
    selection on the drones in the population, has provided long-term mite
    surviving populations on Gotland and in Avignon.

    Host-Parasite Adaptations and
    Interactions Between Honey Bees,
    Varroa Mites and Viruses
    Barbara Locke
    Faculty Natural Resources and Agricultural Sciences
    Department of Ecology
    Uppsala, 2012
    http://pub.epsilon.slu.se/9036/1/locke_b_120912.pdf

    In my view the commonsense argument I made earlier holds. The more the better until a cost of some sort outweighs the benefits.

    Again, we're in don't-need-to-know country, but its interesting enough stuff.

    If you want to remind me what the second item was I'll carry on trying to find a reference to that too.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  19. #99
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    my apologies mike, i found that i misrepresented what was actually said here:

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/....16%20copy.pdf

    it would have been better to have said that the russian strain has had 150 years in developing its measurable resistance against mites.
    Thanks SP. The text is:

    "These Russian bees had been exposed to varroa
    mites for approximately 150 years, much longer than other
    Apis mellifera strains had, and the researchers surmised
    that the Russian bees could have developed a resistance
    to the mites. Indeed, subsequent research has shown that
    these Russian bees are more than twice as resistant to varroa
    mites than other honey bees."

    There is no reason from this text not to surmise that resistance could not have become well established naturally in, say, 10 years. There is no evidence in this text for any length of time to be preferred, other than '150 years was enough'

    It might be worth saying: there is no reason why Russians should't lose their resistance, given a long enough period of treatments. Remove the pressure, the trait will fade.

    Mike (UK)
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    Default Re: Treatment Free "Thriving" vs. Treated "Thriving" - Is it Fair to Compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Here is the reference you require for the item about only a few patrilines being needed. My emphasis:

    "Queen honey bee mates to c. 10 males. Colony can be hygienic if only 1
    or 2 patrilines are hygienic
    . Only 10% or 20% queens reared will be of
    hygienic patrilines unless intracolony selection is used."
    Thanks Mike, you looked so bad demanding links from everybody else, but refusing to back your own claims.

    Problem though, the link doesn't work, and the quote you have given, does not back your former statement.

    So you'll need to get your link right so I can see the context of what is being said. At this point, there is no evidence for your claims.

    I note that you recently asked Squarepeg for a link, and he supplied one immediately. No insults, name calling, demands you find it, or other such babyish behaviour, he simply supplied it. You could learn much from squarepeg about adult behaviour, and conversational etiquette. If you were capable of the same level of courtesy, these threads would be totally different.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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