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  1. #141
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    2,701

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    WBVC why do you say ONLY 10 essential amino acids? You do understand why they call them essential? Are there any studies done on the composition or royal jelly or what bees feed larva? I'd be interested to see the proteins, enzymes and other compounds found and you could break down amino acid compositions/needs there as well.

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    fresno CA USA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    This a sample of olive pollen (old world) it has high protien & sugar low fat then a sample of corn (new world) not as good but the bees really build on it and more abundant image.jpgimage.jpg

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    340

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    David,

    Was it a sample of corn pollen or corn meal? Feed grade corn typically comes in around 8% protein, sometimes a little lower, but this is for the actual corn portion and not the pollen.

    Thanks,
    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    fresno CA USA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    It's corn pollen a few years back did a lot of testing to come up with a base line to build our sub on.

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,194

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    It is my understanding that essential aa are those that can't be synthesized in vitro but have to be acquired...even if the building blocks are provided. I know very little about insects...bar from a standard undergrad Honours Zoology degree. In mammals there is variance between species on specific nutritional requirements.

    I did find an article on Royal Jelly ..but it required $$ and I did not purchase it ...nor do I know how good the data is. http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Comp...al-royal-jelly

    Mammalian nutrition is complex and the nuances are specific for species, age, health, use etc etc. I expect it is a similar case for insects.

    I like would to provide adequate, or preferably optimum, nutrition and general husbandry for the bees in my care. From dealing with mammals I know "best intentions" often lead to disasters.

    I presume that insect nutrition is equally complex..http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22191011003623

    This is a great thread...I am hoping o get more insight into feeding. The links in post #110 are interesting and informative to a new beekeeper. I am hoping that somewhere in this thread I will get an idea as to which commercial bee protein supplement will best suit the needs of farmed bees on the Canadian side of the 49th parallel There are many to choose from but so far short of shooting a dart I am uncertain.

    Specific advice would be greatly appreciated.

  6. #146
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    We use soy, brewers yeast, egg powder, and whole dried milk with good results. Also oil and citric acid. If I were a hobbiest I would use Bee pro and mix in my pollen I collect. These ingredients are only worth it when you buy totes of it. Ill post the specs on our patties but last time I made these I had 22% protein with 7% fat. We will start mixing in a week after supers are off.

    Many tell me the milk is bad for bees. I used it for last 2 years with good results.

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Polk County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    What am I missing or not understanding about the significance of tryptophan ? I know it's an essential amino acid but there are still several others that haven't been discussed at all. Why is tryptophan receiving all the spotlight?

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,714

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Its a convenient way for a certain vendor to bash his competitors' product.
    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Polk County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Just seems to me that an over abundance of tryptophan would make for some mighty lethargic bees.

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,161

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolunteerK9 View Post
    What am I missing or not understanding about the significance of tryptophan ?
    VK9, post #44 a link from Randy Oliver.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,161

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Its a convenient way for a certain vendor to bash his competitors' product.
    Nice try, RS.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  12. #152
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
    Posts
    651

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    " I would suggest to anyone who feels they are not getting straight answers from Keith, call him. He'll talk to you till it's bedtime!" Barry

    Please! This forum is about written post discussion. Phone chatter with an evasive salesman seems "more of the same" and not open to all posters.
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,714

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Nice try, RS.
    Keith, to start with, I don't claim any expertise on analyzing/mixing/manufacturing sub. But I do read most of your posts carefully.

    It is pretty clear to me that some level of tryptophan is in virtually every sub competing product. You choose this particular ingredient to make an issue of, perhaps because your sub has a slightly higher tryptophan ratio than certain competitors product. That does not mean your product is better. It may be better, but the level of tryptophan is only one small part of the total product. You are choosing to focus on one issue.

    I see it as much like dog food marketing. All the competing dog food products meet the minimum standards for a complete, nutritionally balanced dog food. But, manufacturer A adds twice as much of minor ingredient AB than his competitors. Then manufacturer B does something similar with ingredient XY. This way the A ads can proclaim "Twice as much AB as the others" And the B ads can do the same thing with ingredient XY. Every manufacturer can show his dog food is "better".

    But in the end, all of those products will serve as good nutrition for a dog. And it is likely that all the commercial bee sub products will serve in a similar fashion. After all, bee sub is a supplement, not a complete replacement food.

    Every marketer should believe in the superiority of his own product, but I do think that you would better serve your product marketing by being somewhat less aggressive in publicly attacking those you compete with. I don't expect you to publicly agree with this analysis. But this is my opinion, for whatever that is worth.
    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  14. #154
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,161

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    but I do think that you would better serve your product marketing by being somewhat less aggressive in publicly attacking those you compete with. [/COLOR]
    I have tryied not to use names here like Ultra Bee, but, when I was accused of being secretive I then just started to spell it out in black & white. So, if we all look at ML 2013 cataloge (summer) page 48 we see the chart and recommended amino acid porofile by DeGroot . Where is Tryptophan????? That is misleading advertizing at best, not to mention Quoting only part of the profile from DeGroot. At the bottom of the chart it says " A complete amino acid profile" not with out knowing what Tryptopnan is.

    E-mail Randy Oliver see what his take is on this thread.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  15. #155
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,161

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    [QUOTE=julysun;987686evasive salesman .[/QUOTE]

    What do you want to know?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
    Posts
    651

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    What your brood photos show as to "Dry"
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    I don't think everyone understands the Degroot ratio as it is being explained.
    Tryptophan level needs to be established to determine amount of other amino acids needed to ensure total protein is availible.

    Example 1% tryptophan means Valine needs to be at 4%. If tryptophan is at .5% Valine only needs to be 2%. The tryptophan in the Degroot recommendation is a limiting amino acid. Degroots work is giving the basic outline for a totally digestible protein. Valine needs to be present at at least 4x the rate of tryptophan, lysine 3x etc.

    If degroots work has merit this might be step one in mixing your own sub. Additional steps can adress the complexity of further improvements.

  18. #158
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by julysun View Post
    What your brood photos show as to "Dry"
    The brood in the photo shown previously is very dry. And if that dry larvae is the result of YOUR sub then your feeding something wrong. You might be able to stimulate SOME brood yet the bees wont be full of vitogellin because of an improper and unbalanced diet.

    Funny how all these hobbiest beeks know more about pollen sub than an experienced commercial beekeeper who has been doing this for years and actually makes a living due to the quality of his product.

    Them folks in CA have been feeding sub for YEARS. They must have learned something by now.

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,333

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by julysun View Post
    Please! This forum is about written post discussion. Phone chatter with an evasive salesman seems "more of the same" and not open to all posters.
    Then do your homework.
    Regards, Barry

  20. #160
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Teresa Szczęsna sampled 16 pollens in one study. Keiths Amino Acid profile is really close to what Teresa has from 16 different pollen sources.

    My suggestion to anyone that is making pollen is to sit down and do your math. Calculate everything out and make sure you not lacking any amino acids. If you are... You can buy most amino acids in Free form in a health store. 500 grams of Threonine is 20 bucks. Its really spendy but you could do it.


    http://www.jas.org.pl/jas_50_2_2006_9.pdf

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