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  1. #121
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    Vancouver, BC, Canada
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    I am new to beekeeping and have followed this thread with some interest.

    Searching on line it seems most DIY recipes have brewers yeast, soy flour, sugar and water in various amounts. Some add in commercial pollen supplements, low fat milk powder, egg, oil etc. Some advocate feeding in a dry form others moist.

    When checking nutritional values on some of the commercial products I could not find tryptophane and many other nutrients found in honey, pollen and nectar listed on any I saw (likely only saw the tip of the ice berg) and the % of amino acids all differed and differed from the de Groot values. I presume these are based on a dry matter analysis. It appears that that resource listed only 10 essential aa for bees. Also that resource, unless I am wrong, is from 1953...not exactly recent science....not meaning it is wrong but perhaps very incomplete.

    A quick search for pollen chemistry indicates there are many things in pollen that aren't listed in commercial bee supplements...not certain of source but an example is: http://www.envirobee.com/beepollen3.htm

    The same data can be found for honey and there is a lot of data on plant nectars as well.

    In short I remain confused as to what supplement is best nutritionally for my bees in both the short and long term.(I can't really get my head around cane sugar or equivalent being an optimum nutrition source on its own).

    Is the biggest over wintering issue subclinical or clinical disease combined with housing husbandry rather than nutrition? If we feed our bees substances that do not accurately meet their physiological needs are we in the long run doing more harm than good?

    Are there any firm double blind peer reviewed studies that can demonstrate that any one of the commercial and/or homemade feeding supplements is better than another or if any are better than nothing (given a hive has adequate natural reserves) or sugar alone?

    It seems that there are a lot of these products purchased and fed but is it being done on anecdotal or scientific evidence?

    Hopefully someone will be able to help me sort out these feeding issues (spring build up, summer dearth, fall build up, over wintering).

    Thanks so much...

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Humans and animals are essentially one of the same....a bee is an insect. Are their needs the same or specific. Having a complete protein is one thing being able to utilize them as an energy source is also required.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Thank you for listing the resources in post #110

  4. #124
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    May 2012
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    Litchfield, CT, USA
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    415

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    An insect is an animal. Maybe you meant humans and mammals. However you are right it's the utilization of these EAAs that is the important part if this whole discussion. The third link in post 110 has a lot of good info regarding this very question. The questions still in front of us...is the home brew sub concoction beneficial or detrimental and how to make one close to what the bees need without buying a commercial recipe?

  5. #125
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    Jan 2012
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    Roy, Wa
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Great thread!

    Just wait until I start another one about feeding sugar bricks in winter. I look forward to input and discussion about that. Sure to become controversial since some feed and some don't.

    I had great luck with my sugar blocks the last two years, also made with cider vinegar, electrolytes and Pro Health...sprinkled with a little dry beepro on top. Even with plenty of stores, they all utilized them.
    I won't post details yet. I'll wait for another thread on winter feeding.
    Here's a few teaser photos:










    I prefer to overwinter in a two story set up, but after seeing how the bees utilize the bricks, I am no longer as concerned if I have to overwinter a single box of any size.
    Last edited by Lauri; 08-13-2013 at 05:32 PM.

  6. #126
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    Jun 2013
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    Spring Tx
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Vary interesting thread, but I always wonder when man intervenes on behalf of animals (insects) when they and bees have been around longer than us. I hope I learned more, and didn't just get confused. I see the point in looking up information on your own, you'll retain more, but when it's in such vast quantities and your wondering which way to turn, sometimes a simple answer helps tremendously. No offense meant.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by dnichols View Post
    An insect is an animal. Maybe you meant humans and mammals. However you are right it's the utilization of these EAAs that is the important part if this whole discussion. The third link in post 110 has a lot of good info regarding this very question. The questions still in front of us...is the home brew sub concoction beneficial or detrimental and how to make one close to what the bees need without buying a commercial recipe?
    Yes..sorry

    but not just DIY products but the commercial ones as well. I have no idea how much solid research is behind those rather than just well marketed DIY

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Lauri, did you get a chance to read post #110 the last link?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Not yet Keith, too busy right now. Maybe tonight.

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Well, when you get time Lauri, then going back threw this brewsing thread (lol) you will see what I've been saying is the same in post#110. You will see that protein is at the for-front and the base is at 20%, and that the amino acids are important. This link echo's pretty much what I have said on this thread.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #131
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    May 2012
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    DFW area, TX, USA
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    Question Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Redacted....Posted in wrong thread
    Last edited by Lburou; 08-14-2013 at 08:23 AM.
    LeeB
    I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

  12. #132
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    Sep 2007
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    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    DeGroot did not suggest an optimal protein content, but rather an optimal ratio. When we analyze natural pollen samples, we look at a composite, meaning what the hive collects over a given period, especially during periods of rapid growth. I think we have to be careful and not look at individual pollen samples and draw the conclusion that it is better for some arbitrary reason. The composite pollen samples that we have analyzed, generally come in well below the 20% protein level, many in the 15-17% range.

    I see this line of thinking in the animal industry as well, if a little protein is good, then more must be better… Most feed stuffs are priced on protein content, since that is a major component of what the producer is trying to provide. As a kid, my dad and I did a science fair project using broiler chickens. They are the fastest growing production animal with the most efficient feed to gain ratio. We wanted to show that that a well balanced feed could have a much lower total protein content and still produce optimal growth and muscle development, thus providing a monetary benefit for the grower. We were able to do that and use a feed that was nearly 4% less than the commercial standard, but it was a well balanced feed.

    We have done the same in the world of bees. We have designed diets in 23% protein range down to the 13% protein range. All have worked well and provide plenty of nutrients for growth, but they all were properly balanced. EACH nutrient is carefully analyzed and incorporated into the diet, there are nearly 30 other them to properly balance. I realize most research focuses on protein content, perhaps because that is the least expensive analytical test and it makes up the majority of the diet. But the true value comes from optimizing the vitamins and mineral levels so that the bees can efficient utilize the energy contained in the diet. There other animal industries realized this many decades ago, and beekeepers are getting there.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  13. #133
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    Mar 2013
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    Clinton County, IN, USA
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    thanks for your reply Joe.

    If I bought your bee food, what is the recommended mixing? Do I just mix it with sugar syrup to make patties?

  14. #134
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    Sep 2007
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    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    LS,

    Yes, it is pretty easy. Just add sugar, water, and oil to the dry mix. Some use corn syrup, which has a slightly different consistency.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    The composite pollen samples that we have analyzed, generally come in well below the 20% protein level, many in the 15-17% range.
    Joe
    Here are just a couple of lab results date 1995 that I doug out of my files, this is the avg what we have

    http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...pse5897cef.jpg

    http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps28ed8cab.jpg

    We have been testing for decades long before sub became to popular. Joe believes that 15-17 % range of protein and we at Nutra Bee believe 20% pluse base on years of lab test of bee pollen.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  16. #136
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    I see the same thing in that methionine tends to be the limiting amino acid when using a Yeast and Soy based diet. This is true if applying DeGroot’s ratios, although I am not sure about methionine. If you look at the analyses of composite samples of natural pollen, methionine is often lower. But a 50/50 blend of yeast and soy meets the other requirements nicely. I have an Excel table around here some place that I need to dig up and see if I can get posted.
    The Excel table the Joe referenced above is available for download below.

    I am posting this on behalf of Joe as there are still unresolved "issues" with his account settings that affect uploading attachments.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Keith, thanks for posting the analyses! I am not arguing what percentage of protein is optimal as I believe requirements change throughout the season. Some of our analyses came in higher some came in lower. We shoot for the long term average. Our Bee Food is formulated for right around 18% protein on an as fed basis. For some applications, it is slightly higher when using less sugar or water in the patty. What I am trying to convey is that a balanced diet is best.

    Keith, your analyses are interesting for a couple of reasons. First, your one overall analysis states a protein content of 21.56%. Your second detailed analysis is 18.72% protein. Second, the Tryptophan level in your detailed analysis is 0.26g/100g sample. This means 0.26% Tryptophan overall or 1.38% for protein content alone. I am not criticizing these numbers at all, it is just interesting to see the diversity in samples. The more diversity the better! The more samples the closer you get to a long term average.

    Thoroughly enjoying this thread!
    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  18. #138
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    Sep 2007
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    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Graham, Thanks so much!
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  19. #139
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    Mar 2013
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    Clinton County, IN, USA
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    I have always heard that beekeeping is very local. Has anyone ever taken pollen at the same time of year from different parts of the country and had it checked for nutrition?

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    The materials cited in #110 seem to indicate otherwise...they seem to support accessible CP levels in the mid to high 20s

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