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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    2,066

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein.
    Joe
    Is there a protien feed source out there that is lacking or has an insignificant amount?

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Mbeck,

    Generally speaking, no. Using multiple protein sources helps to “balance out” amino acids. Keep in mind that honey bees consume a plant based diet for all intensive purposes. Most readily available protein sources, used for pollen supplement, are plant derived. This is true for a good portion of the animal feed industry. Corn and Soy are commonly used to complement each other in animal rations, because they help fill the short comings of each product. For bees, we typically use soy and yeast, which complement each other pretty well. Also keep in mind that when you get into using isolates, such as soy or corn gluten, you have to be very mindful of other nutrients. Such products have higher protein contents, but in order to get the higher protein content other nutrients are removed. Hence the term “isolate”, as the production process isolates the protein component of the grain.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    Sorry Keith, I thought you were suggesting other supplements did not contain tryptophan. That's what caught my attention as tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein.

    Joe
    Joe, one that was mention earlyer we don't know how much Tryphan it contains because they listed ONLY 9 out of 10 ( the sly pooches),

    Empyeal 75 by Cargill has a dry base protein of 82% BUT, has only 0.42% Tryptophan . hmmmm


    >Tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein>

    you sure about that Joe
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Keith,

    I’m sure. Please reread my previous post. Feeding simply isolates such as Empreal 75, which is a corn gluten product, is a mistake. As I wrote, multiple protein sources help to balance each other out. You should know that. That is why I also wrote in my last post that corn and soy are often used in conjunction with each other and smaller proportions of isolates to increase the overall protein level.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    Keith,

    I’m sure. Please reread my previous post. oe
    I see you changed since the #100 that I quoted you from. There a BIG difference between your 100 & 102 post. Good enough Joe, I think everybody following get it.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Keith,

    Just so that I get it… Tryptophan is still pretty ubiquitous, meaning present in most protein sources, post #100

    Balanced nutrition is best (not just based on one nutrient such as tryptophan), hence the multiple protein sources, post #102

    BIG difference, Change?!

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,168

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    We have now gone through about 4000 pounds of Keith's substitute. We use it now to fatten the bees up for winter and in January to build up for pollination. We also like it on the cell builders where copious jelly production is critical. I have not tried them all but Keith's so far is the best. Ample nutrition goes a long way towards ameliorating most bee problems.
    Last edited by JBJ; 08-12-2013 at 08:20 PM. Reason: atrocious spelling
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Visalia, CA USA
    Posts
    156

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    In the sub I make and have posted, tryptophan has not been the limiting amino acid, methionine has been the one to come up short. So adding a little egg to the latest mix has balanced the amino acid profile. The protein is 20.2 Ph 4.4. a complete nutritional analysis runs a little over $300 Then you have to run the numbers through a formula that Randy SHARED with me to compare to DeGroots numbers.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Litchfield, CT, USA
    Posts
    430

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    The following is a list of Essential Amino Acids of a complete protein. This list can be found with a simple google search. These are optimal proportions to support the biological functions of humans and animals. The issue here is doing the research and studies to produce a product that has these proportions. It is easier to make a product that has all these EAAs but not nesessarily in the right proportions. Most hobbiest or even sideliners probably don't have the money or maybe interest in getting a nutritional profile done on their kitchen brew sub. But hey I could be wrong. I have not used Keith's product but I am sure he spent some money to make a decent product and I would like to try it.

    Although more expensive I would use nutritional yeast instead of brewers yeast in a home brew sub. It is a complete protein.

    All #s are mg/g of protein.

    Tryptophan 7
    Threonine 27
    Isoleucine 25
    Leucine 55
    Lysine 51
    Methionine+Cystine 25
    Phenylalanine+Tyrosine 47
    Valine 32
    Histidine 18

  10. #110

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    David,

    Glad to see your post. I see the same thing in that methionine tends to be the limiting amino acid when using a Yeast and Soy based diet. This is true if applying DeGroot’s ratios, although I am not sure about methionine. If you look at the analyses of composite samples of natural pollen, methionine is often lower. But a 50/50 blend of yeast and soy meets the other requirements nicely. I have an Excel table around here some place that I need to dig up and see if I can get posted. Then there is the matter of vitamins and minerals, which are the “keys” that allow bees to drive the metabolic pathways to process the protein they ingest.

    Bernhardheuvel,

    I like your last link of the three you posted. It has some very clear and concise values!

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    helenwood,tn.usa
    Posts
    121

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Now thats educating!!!
    thanks

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    1,876

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Glad to see this thread producing some real information for beekeepers of every level.

    Since you brought up the egg ingredient, I will ask this:
    After viewing Randy's recipe, I considered adding the egg or egg yolk to my mix. He uses dried egg.
    I have plenty of extra eggs due to my hens and turkeys, but why dry the egg if it is just going to be re hydrated in the mix? Did Randy use dried egg for convenience sake or is there a reason?
    No, I won't try to contact him. I am sure he gets overwhelmed with questions, especially now since he is the focus of that Time article.
    My concern with is spoilage. Any thoughts about using fresh eggs?
    One note: In the summer and fall months, my Patties are usually consumed within a week's time before being reapplied. I could put more on the hive, but limit the amount so it is always somewhat fresh.



    I am also looking for another source for 50# sacks of Brewers Yeast. Any contact info you can share? (I dont care for Mann Lake's since they switched suppliers.)

    Heres an update..email from Ed at Mann Lake:

    Lauri,
    The brewer’s yeast we have now is different than what I sold you last year. I’m going to send you a sample. Also, I’m including analysis of a comparison of brewer’s yeast and Bee Pro.



    For what it’s worth, Bee Pro does have a higher protein content and is consumed faster. Consumption is probably because of the sugars that are in Bee Pro. We don’t add sugar. It’s what’s already there.



    Later this fall, Randy Oliver, who’s been doing feed trial for us, will have a write up regarding his findings. Not sure where they’ll be published, but once I have a copy, I’ll forward it.

    *****
    Looks like I'l be ordering from Mann Lake again.
    Last edited by Lauri; 08-13-2013 at 04:25 PM.

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,716

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    I have an Excel table around here some place that I need to dig up and see if I can get posted.
    Posting XLS files are "allowed" by the forum software, but sometimes members seem to have issues with the built in attachment feature. If you do have an Excel file available to post and it won't work correctly, don't give up. Barry may be able to help, or you can PM me. I just tried a test XLS file and got it to upload OK.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #115
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Litchfield, CT, USA
    Posts
    430

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Lauri,

    Try bulkfoods.com they are out of OH. I have used them for brewers yeast and nutritional yeast with good service. I am not sure how their prices compare to ML but you can check it out.

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Clinton County, IN, USA
    Posts
    71

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    I found this sight for brewers yeast

    http://www.joshsfrogs.com/brewers-yeast-50-lbs.html

    they also have in 3 pound quantities, but is $3.00 per pound

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    helenwood,tn.usa
    Posts
    121

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    gotta tell ya lauri every time i see that pic. makes me want a big scoop on a sugar cone.
    beekeeping about 15 years. Warning i could be an idiot. I'm from South Jersey.

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,143

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Lauri, for what is worth I have used raw egg yolk in a small test sample. ( The white is suposed to be undigestable to a bee. ) Left it on the counter in covered container for a week at 40 -50 degrees, then for a couple of months refrigerated. The high sugar content does not let it spoil.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    1,876

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Thank you all, yes, I saw the Josh's frog site yesterday, but it said the shipping price was unavailable. I will check the other suggestions too.
    I'll try the fresh yolk to my recipe on a few hives to test it. As person that cans food, I know the acidity of food is what determines the rate/susceptibility for spoilage. My vinegar percentage is already quite high in my recipe. It should be benefitial to helping the freshness of the added egg yolk.

    I won't know the health benefit for quite some time, but will be able to tell if it stays fresh right away.
    I'll let you all know how it goes.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Visalia, CA USA
    Posts
    156

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Yeast from ethonal production does not have the same nutritional value as brewers or nutritional although the the analysis may say different. I use Honeyville for the dried egg you can source a cheaper supply from cal spray dry in sac. But one wif and you'll why know I don't use it.

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