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Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

86K views 235 replies 43 participants last post by  beesohappy 
#1 ·
Has anyone had first hand experience with this type of product as to whether or not it could or would stimulate brood rearing at this time of year? Say this product and combination of sugar ayrup @ 1:1 ratio.
 
#141 ·
WBVC why do you say ONLY 10 essential amino acids? You do understand why they call them essential? Are there any studies done on the composition or royal jelly or what bees feed larva? I'd be interested to see the proteins, enzymes and other compounds found and you could break down amino acid compositions/needs there as well.
 
#145 ·
It is my understanding that essential aa are those that can't be synthesized in vitro but have to be acquired...even if the building blocks are provided. I know very little about insects...bar from a standard undergrad Honours Zoology degree. In mammals there is variance between species on specific nutritional requirements.

I did find an article on Royal Jelly ..but it required $$ and I did not purchase it:( ...nor do I know how good the data is. http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Composition-of-freshly-harvested-and-commercial-royal-jelly

Mammalian nutrition is complex and the nuances are specific for species, age, health, use etc etc. I expect it is a similar case for insects.

I like would to provide adequate, or preferably optimum, nutrition and general husbandry for the bees in my care. From dealing with mammals I know "best intentions" often lead to disasters.

I presume that insect nutrition is equally complex..http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022191011003623

This is a great thread...I am hoping o get more insight into feeding. The links in post #110 are interesting and informative to a new beekeeper. I am hoping that somewhere in this thread I will get an idea as to which commercial bee protein supplement will best suit the needs of farmed bees on the Canadian side of the 49th parallel:) There are many to choose from but so far short of shooting a dart I am uncertain.

Specific advice would be greatly appreciated.:)
 
#146 ·
We use soy, brewers yeast, egg powder, and whole dried milk with good results. Also oil and citric acid. If I were a hobbiest I would use Bee pro and mix in my pollen I collect. These ingredients are only worth it when you buy totes of it. Ill post the specs on our patties but last time I made these I had 22% protein with 7% fat. We will start mixing in a week after supers are off.

Many tell me the milk is bad for bees. I used it for last 2 years with good results.
 
#152 ·
" I would suggest to anyone who feels they are not getting straight answers from Keith, call him. He'll talk to you till it's bedtime!" Barry

Please! This forum is about written post discussion. Phone chatter with an evasive salesman seems "more of the same" and not open to all posters.
 
#158 ·
The brood in the photo shown previously is very dry. And if that dry larvae is the result of YOUR sub then your feeding something wrong. You might be able to stimulate SOME brood yet the bees wont be full of vitogellin because of an improper and unbalanced diet.

Funny how all these hobbiest beeks know more about pollen sub than an experienced commercial beekeeper who has been doing this for years and actually makes a living due to the quality of his product.

Them folks in CA have been feeding sub for YEARS. They must have learned something by now.
 
#157 ·
I don't think everyone understands the Degroot ratio as it is being explained.
Tryptophan level needs to be established to determine amount of other amino acids needed to ensure total protein is availible.

Example 1% tryptophan means Valine needs to be at 4%. If tryptophan is at .5% Valine only needs to be 2%. The tryptophan in the Degroot recommendation is a limiting amino acid. Degroots work is giving the basic outline for a totally digestible protein. Valine needs to be present at at least 4x the rate of tryptophan, lysine 3x etc.

If degroots work has merit this might be step one in mixing your own sub. Additional steps can adress the complexity of further improvements.
 
#160 ·
Teresa Szczêsna sampled 16 pollens in one study. Keiths Amino Acid profile is really close to what Teresa has from 16 different pollen sources.

My suggestion to anyone that is making pollen is to sit down and do your math. Calculate everything out and make sure you not lacking any amino acids. If you are... You can buy most amino acids in Free form in a health store. 500 grams of Threonine is 20 bucks. Its really spendy but you could do it.


http://www.jas.org.pl/jas_50_2_2006_9.pdf
 
#161 ·
Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!
I don't have to feed where I keep bees, never have and the bees do OK.
With all these ingredients it sounds just about like feedlot cattle.
How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??
I hope all your bees are happy
 
#166 ·
Here’s some other interesting information, or at least I think so. J
If you look at the second link in post # 135 for pollen analyses, specifically individual amino acid content and add all of the numbers up, I get 18.72g protein/100g sample or 18.72%. If you then apply Degroot’s ratio with Tryptophan as the “base” amino acid to provide the optimal ratio for the remaining amino acids, I calculate1.62g of protein are “unavailable”, so now we are down to 17.1g of available protein. If you look more closely, based on Degroot’s ratios, there are two limiting amino acids, Valine and Iso-Leucine. Valine is the most limiting and comes in at only 77.8% of the required, based on Degroot’s ratios. 77.8% of 17.1g available protein (based solely on Tryptophan) puts the available protein number at 13.3g per 100g sample or 13.3% protein.

You can see what it is important to look at all the numbers and this is only the protein aspect!

Joe
 
#167 ·
If you look at the second link in post # 135 for pollen analyses, specifically individual amino acid content and add all of the numbers up, I get 18.72g protein/100g sample or 18.72%. (based solely on Tryptophan) puts the available protein number at 13.3g per 100g sample or 13.3% protein.[/FONT]
You can see what it is important to look at all the numbers and this is only the protein aspect![/COLOR][/FONT]
What Joe has done is the math, STOP we have a winner! :) But to take this a couple steps futher, As Joe used my data in post # 135 that is one of hunderds I've done over the past 20 plus years. The one thing that stands out is it seems that all amino acids act different( utilized) when fed to bees, in other words we find that some of our proteins that we at Nutra Bee organic farmed by Nutra Bee seem to have better reponces than store bought of the same product.
 
#169 ·
The one thing that stands out is it seems that all amino acids act different( utilized) when fed to bees, in other words we find that some of our proteins that we at Nutra Bee organic farmed by Nutra Bee seem to have better reponces than store bought of the same product.
Hmm, the exact meaning of that quote is unclear to me, but Keith appears to be saying that in the end, those lab analysis numbers are not the be-all / end-all when it comes choosing to the "best" sub product. :lookout:

Somewhat of a change from the single-minded focus on tryptophan numbers earlier in this thread!
 
#172 ·
I'm not really sure how to comment on this thread.
If I was making my living with hundreds of colonies, I certainly would be interested in taking the time to research the Internet and develop a protein sub that was nutritionally complete in every way.

Most people however, just want a company with a good rep to do the work of the formula development, mix it up, distribute it and take our MONEY from us lowly soles that just want to buy a bit of the darn stuff.

I buy Purina horse feed because I trust the company to have it's formulas correct. My horses love it and it always smells fantastically fresh. I don't intend to analyze the nutritional breakdown of nutrients and micro nutrients that really mean nothing to me anyway without the knowledge of their application. I really don't have the time or interest. I see the results of this feed and I am very satisfied.

All this bickering over who is right about formulas is getting old. Most of us average Joe's really only understand a pound of this and a pound of that. Add water, egg yolk, vinegar, sugar and anything else you might like to throw in just for fun.

So all you big important guys can do your math and argue over the results all you want. I'd guess not many at this point are reading this thread anymore.

Ed at Mann Lake is the only one who has bothered to contact me with the nutritional breakdown of his product (Which is cost effective, easy to mix and they actually SELL it) offered me free samples and has Randy Oliver doing a test feed for in the field results.

Mann Lake still has my business. And to answer all the messages I have recieved, yes, I still like my original recipe that was posted in the beginning of this thread. I still use it and get excellent results.
 
#174 ·
Pollen varies by season and local. What pollen is available to the bees to fill in the pollen sub gaps is a combination of what is being brought in and what has been stored.
So field testing and experience shows that a California and a mid-west producer reach different conclusions of the final details of their formulas. I for one am shocked!
I thank you both for sharing with those making their own (and using commercial products). The difference between your individual formula's and the composition of the average Joes sources of raw materials makes the arguments kind of nonsense. My guess is you both spend considerable more time worrying about the consistancy of your own suppliers, more than each other's formula. Except when posting here.
I repeat, I do not think either one of you shares your knowledge with the idea that you might sell a few more #s of product.
You are probably discouraging more people from sub use of any kind with the bickering than you are converting people to your side. Just saying.
 
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