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  1. #161
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    Dec 2009
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    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
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    900

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!
    I don't have to feed where I keep bees, never have and the bees do OK.
    With all these ingredients it sounds just about like feedlot cattle.
    How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??
    I hope all your bees are happy

  2. #162
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    3,174

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!
    Ah, just keep your head low and stay under the bus you'll be fine mate.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    fresno CA USA
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    123

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Has Keith ever posted his amino acid profile? I must have missed it.

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    1,137

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!
    Then you really want to avoid the treatment free forum.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  5. #165
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
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    1,291

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Keith, to start with, I don't claim any expertise on analyzing/mixing/manufacturing sub. But I do read most of your posts carefully.

    It is pretty clear to me that some level of tryptophan is in virtually every sub competing product. You choose this particular ingredient to make an issue of, perhaps because your sub has a slightly higher tryptophan ratio than certain competitors product. That does not mean your product is better. It may be better, but the level of tryptophan is only one small part of the total product. You are choosing to focus on one issue.

    I see it as much like dog food marketing. All the competing dog food products meet the minimum standards for a complete, nutritionally balanced dog food. But, manufacturer A adds twice as much of minor ingredient AB than his competitors. Then manufacturer B does something similar with ingredient XY. This way the A ads can proclaim "Twice as much AB as the others" And the B ads can do the same thing with ingredient XY. Every manufacturer can show his dog food is "better".

    But in the end, all of those products will serve as good nutrition for a dog. And it is likely that all the commercial bee sub products will serve in a similar fashion. After all, bee sub is a supplement, not a complete replacement food.

    Every marketer should believe in the superiority of his own product, but I do think that you would better serve your product marketing by being somewhat less aggressive in publicly attacking those you compete with. I don't expect you to publicly agree with this analysis. But this is my opinion, for whatever that is worth.
    Basic minimalist dog foods that are tested and certified will have adequate nutrient levels to keep a "healthy" dog in normal activity alive...no more no less. If you are looking for more than that you have look farther....not at the bag but the research behind the bag.

    I can only surmise that for bee supplements (of which I have no knowledge beyond forums etc)
    The same holds true...except there seems to be no certified minimalist baseline....and given it seems most farmed bees are under some degree of disease and/or husbandry stress for those critters baseline needs would likely be inadequate.

    Given that adequate foraging with minimum population manual tigon should bring in adequate nutrition I guess as long as what we give on top of that isn't too toxic and/or unbalanced the bees may manage despite us

    Still looking for the optimum solutions by following with interest what others are doing...and noting successes and misses.

    Thanks for all the info.

    Has it been decided yet what protein % and pollen % and source one should look for in a bee feed supplement?

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    360

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Here’s some other interesting information, or at least I think so. J
    If you look at the second link in post # 135 for pollen analyses, specifically individual amino acid content and add all of the numbers up, I get 18.72g protein/100g sample or 18.72%. If you then apply Degroot’s ratio with Tryptophan as the “base” amino acid to provide the optimal ratio for the remaining amino acids, I calculate1.62g of protein are “unavailable”, so now we are down to 17.1g of available protein. If you look more closely, based on Degroot’s ratios, there are two limiting amino acids, Valine and Iso-Leucine. Valine is the most limiting and comes in at only 77.8% of the required, based on Degroot’s ratios. 77.8% of 17.1g available protein (based solely on Tryptophan) puts the available protein number at 13.3g per 100g sample or 13.3% protein.

    You can see what it is important to look at all the numbers and this is only the protein aspect!

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  7. #167
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    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
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    3,174

    Lightbulb Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    If you look at the second link in post # 135 for pollen analyses, specifically individual amino acid content and add all of the numbers up, I get 18.72g protein/100g sample or 18.72%. (based solely on Tryptophan) puts the available protein number at 13.3g per 100g sample or 13.3% protein.[/FONT]
    You can see what it is important to look at all the numbers and this is only the protein aspect![/COLOR][/FONT]
    What Joe has done is the math, STOP we have a winner! But to take this a couple steps futher, As Joe used my data in post # 135 that is one of hunderds I've done over the past 20 plus years. The one thing that stands out is it seems that all amino acids act different( utilized) when fed to bees, in other words we find that some of our proteins that we at Nutra Bee organic farmed by Nutra Bee seem to have better reponces than store bought of the same product.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  8. #168
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    360

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Sooo, are you implying Degroot’s ratios are wrong?
    It’s okay, I am not saying they are gospel when it comes to field application. In research, lab tests allow for more controlled conditions, but out in the field we must contend with many more variables.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  9. #169
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,116

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    The one thing that stands out is it seems that all amino acids act different( utilized) when fed to bees, in other words we find that some of our proteins that we at Nutra Bee organic farmed by Nutra Bee seem to have better reponces than store bought of the same product.
    Hmm, the exact meaning of that quote is unclear to me, but Keith appears to be saying that in the end, those lab analysis numbers are not the be-all / end-all when it comes choosing to the "best" sub product.

    Somewhat of a change from the single-minded focus on tryptophan numbers earlier in this thread!
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #170
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    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
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    3,174

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Would both of you STOP putting words in my mouth!

    What I am saying is if you had two different ingredeints with the same percent of protein profile doesnt mean you will get the same responce out of the bees. I hope this makes since.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #171
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    fresno CA USA
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    123

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    No new info here ( post #170)

  12. #172
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    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
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    1,622

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    I'm not really sure how to comment on this thread.
    If I was making my living with hundreds of colonies, I certainly would be interested in taking the time to research the Internet and develop a protein sub that was nutritionally complete in every way.

    Most people however, just want a company with a good rep to do the work of the formula development, mix it up, distribute it and take our MONEY from us lowly soles that just want to buy a bit of the darn stuff.

    I buy Purina horse feed because I trust the company to have it's formulas correct. My horses love it and it always smells fantastically fresh. I don't intend to analyze the nutritional breakdown of nutrients and micro nutrients that really mean nothing to me anyway without the knowledge of their application. I really don't have the time or interest. I see the results of this feed and I am very satisfied.

    All this bickering over who is right about formulas is getting old. Most of us average Joe's really only understand a pound of this and a pound of that. Add water, egg yolk, vinegar, sugar and anything else you might like to throw in just for fun.

    So all you big important guys can do your math and argue over the results all you want. I'd guess not many at this point are reading this thread anymore.

    Ed at Mann Lake is the only one who has bothered to contact me with the nutritional breakdown of his product (Which is cost effective, easy to mix and they actually SELL it) offered me free samples and has Randy Oliver doing a test feed for in the field results.

    Mann Lake still has my business. And to answer all the messages I have recieved, yes, I still like my original recipe that was posted in the beginning of this thread. I still use it and get excellent results.

  13. #173
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    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
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    2,981

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??
    I hope all your bees are happy
    I suppose they survived just fine. I am not looking for mere survival.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    1,137

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Pollen varies by season and local. What pollen is available to the bees to fill in the pollen sub gaps is a combination of what is being brought in and what has been stored.
    So field testing and experience shows that a California and a mid-west producer reach different conclusions of the final details of their formulas. I for one am shocked!
    I thank you both for sharing with those making their own (and using commercial products). The difference between your individual formula's and the composition of the average Joes sources of raw materials makes the arguments kind of nonsense. My guess is you both spend considerable more time worrying about the consistancy of your own suppliers, more than each other's formula. Except when posting here.
    I repeat, I do not think either one of you shares your knowledge with the idea that you might sell a few more #s of product.
    You are probably discouraging more people from sub use of any kind with the bickering than you are converting people to your side. Just saying.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  15. #175
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    fresno CA USA
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    123

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    There is a big difference in where you source your supply's. in a article there was more weight gain with brewers yeast than distiller yeast ( 80g for brewers verses 2g for distiller ( ethanol)

  16. #176
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    722

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidsbees View Post
    has keith ever posted his amino acid profile? I must have missed it.

    alanine 1.10 arginine 0.96 asparagine ----
    aspartic acid 2.10 cysteine .26 glutamine ----
    glutamic acid 1.74 glycine .97 histidine .62
    isolenucine .81 lecucine 1.44 lysine 1.31
    methionine .44 phenylalanine .85 proline 2.38
    serine 1.12 theronine .94 tryptophan .26
    tyrosine .44 valine .98

  17. #177
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    722

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??

    In the past there wasn't a large demand for strong hives in February. In the past there were many more wild plants and weeds but now lots of the land is crops such as corn, cotton,etc with poor nutrition which is why we feed substitute.

  18. #178
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
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    900

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    In the past there wasn't a large demand for strong hives in February. In the past there were many more wild plants and weeds but now lots of the land is crops such as corn, cotton,etc with poor nutrition which is why we feed substitute.
    Thanks RAK. The Almonds!!

    But does everybody need to have strong hives in Feb? I assume not everybody goes to the Almonds.
    From the distance of Australia....I fully understand that things have changed but I just wonder what the outcome will be? Feedlot in cattle, broiler lots for chickens turned farmers into factory workers. Will the same happen to Apiarists in parts of the US?
    Where are we going?

  19. #179
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Lauri,

    I realize there is a lot of information in this thread. It can be difficult to cover the full range between new beekeeper and the established commercial beekeeper, but there really is a lot of good info here.

    Saltybee,
    I find the quote in your signature line “I like people who agree with me, I learn from people who disagree” to be a little ironic. I like Keith and although we may disagree, I learn something when we interact.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  20. #180
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    1,137

    Default Re: Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.

    Thanks Joe,
    Good to hear. I truely have a hard time telling the difference between what seems to be banter between you two and the next post which seems anything but.

    Tag line; I learn from disagreement, not so much from disagreeable.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

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