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  1. #1
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    Default New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    "Using lightweight radar transponders less than an inch long that are glued onto the backs of honey bees, the researchers have been able to accurately track the flight paths taken by individual honey bees. However the researchers have found that the insects, which have suffered dramatic declines over the past 25 years, become disorientated and have trouble navigating when exposed to controversial pesticides called neonicotinoids."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening...avigation.html

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    "Tests show bees that have eaten syrup contaminated with the pesticides are unable to use their memory of landmarks in their surroundings to find their way back to their hives" = researchers poisoned the bees just like in the Harvard study.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    I know you have a vested interest in spin (being a pesticide salesman...) but tell us, how would you have conducted the research? Why is it that you only find fault with research that shows negative impacts from neonics, and yet you love every bit of research--no matter how flawed--that purports to show no negative effect from neonics? Conflict of interest perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    "Tests show bees that have eaten syrup contaminated with the pesticides are unable to use their memory of landmarks in their surroundings to find their way back to their hives" = researchers poisoned the bees just like in the Harvard study.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Why is it that you only find fault with research that shows negative impacts from neonics, and yet you love every bit of research--no matter how flawed--that purports to show no negative effect from neonics?
    Like Bayer and Syngenta, I have no problem with research where the investigators didn't artificially expose the bees to neonics. To date, however, it turns out the only research that shows negative impacts (aside from the planter dust off issue) involved cases where the researchers artificially exposed the bees to neonics, fungicides and/or diseases like Nosema.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    That's like car makers saying that they don't mind crash safety tests that show "real world collision damage" but that crash tests conducted in the lab using crash test dummies just aren't up to par.... Little more than smoke, mirrors, and red herrings from the industry trying to protect their profits.....

    BTW, it would appear that the EPA doesn't share your disdain for lab studies on bees:

    "While elaborate field studies can be designed, there may be confounding factors which limit, but do not entirely discredit, the utility of a study. It is clear that field pollinator studies cannot be viewed in the same context as laboratory studies where experimental conditions can be strictly controlled. Recognizing the complexity of conducting and interpreting field studies, EPA has made the best use of existing data."

    Steve Bradbury, Director, Office of Pesticide Programs EPA



    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Like Bayer and Syngenta, I have no problem with research where the investigators didn't artificially expose the bees to neonics. To date, however, it turns out the only research that shows negative impacts (aside from the planter dust off issue) involved cases where the researchers artificially exposed the bees to neonics, fungicides and/or diseases like Nosema.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    sorry but in my opinion this study demonstrated one thing. Bees that have been tampered with by researchers have trouble navigating.
    Since the researchers have no way of controlling the percentage uptake of the bees, and no comparison basis in the uptake of neonics under natural conditions by free roaming bees to use as a guideline. then this study holds no useful information other than to lend credence to the chicken little crowd. Just sayin!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    I would have to agree with Tenbears on this force feeding bees neonic and trying to reach a real world conclusion is a bit of a stretch. Also for the EPA to be given a lot of credibility can open another can of worms. JMHO

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Big dawg, you have to admit, gluing a transmitter an inch long and force feeding a know poison to them is in no way a real test...... I could have given you those results without spending a dime.......
    In some kind of funded fantasy does that show you anything. now get a microdot the size of a mite, and some real world exposure to neonic crops and we learn a bit.

    You can't be so Naive to think this is somehow the smoking gun in CCD can you??

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    I think we need to know how the bees react when exposed to the witches brew of pesticide residues that they come into contact with on a daily basis. As the recent Pettis study shows, pollen samples from real world settings contain residues from over 20 different pesticides. One leading school of thought with CCD is that the bees are becoming disoriented by pesticides while out in the fields collecting pollen and nectar. There are now numerous studies showing that neonics--which are neural toxins--effect bees ability to orient and navigate. The million dollar question is: at what level of field exposure can bees ability to navigate and orient be impacted by neonics, and, is this cumulative level of exposure, over time, a factor in CCD? Frankly, I give the numerous studies like this one that show negative impacts from neonics exposure MUCH more relevance than pesticide industry studies that exposed bees (they think, not sure...lol) to neonic-coated canola for TWO WEEKS, then declared nenoics as not harmful to bees......

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Worth having a listen. From the 2013 ABF Conference.

    Dr James Frazier: http://abfnet.org/associations/10537...%20Frazier.mp3.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Lol, everyone gets their panties in a bunch over "force feeding." In order to get good data, you need to control the environment and isolate variables. As we saw with the Bayer-funded research on neonics canola, when you don't control variables (i.e. the control group that was NOT supposed to be exposed to neonics actually was....) then you get poor data that is of little value. Feeding the bees in the lab is just about the only way to control for these variables. The only real issue I have with the methodology is at what level of concentration the neonics are present in the food. Anyone who would dismiss such studies simply because the bees are beeing "force fed" must not have a very good idea about the scientific method and the need for replicable results.

    For those who criticize the feeding of bees in the lab, what is your suggestion for a research methodology that would give more accurate results?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffnmo View Post
    I would have to agree with Tenbears on this force feeding bees neonic and trying to reach a real world conclusion is a bit of a stretch. Also for the EPA to be given a lot of credibility can open another can of worms. JMHO

  12. #12
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    The million dollar question is: at what level of field exposure can bees ability to navigate and orient be impacted by neonics, and, is this cumulative level of exposure, over time, a factor in CCD?
    It's already been mentioned time and time again that CCD is not a serious problem in areas where neonics are used most heavily: corn belt states, sunflower growing states, canola growing states. And it's already been mentioned many times that researchers don't find the bee's navigational abilities are impaired unless they expose the bees to neonics artificially in the lab.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Thanks for sharing that, really fascinating research! I like that these are long-term field studies, i.e. conducted over a 6 year period.

    It's very interesting to hear about how the pesticide exposed hives show a 50% reduction in the number of nurse bees, and, that for at least a year post-exposure, everything seems fine. It's not until the second year that the colonies with reduced nurse bee numbers begin to collapse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta Bay View Post
    Worth having a listen. From the 2013 ABF Conference.

    Dr James Frazier: http://abfnet.org/associations/10537...%20Frazier.mp3.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Why some hives DON'T get CCD is of little significance--the issue of importance is why some hives DO get CCD. Millions of smokers don't get lung cancer, but many smokers do. This doesn't in any way demonstrate that smoking doesn't cause cancer...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    It's already been mentioned time and time again that CCD is not a serious problem in areas where neonics are used most heavily: corn belt states, sunflower growing states, canola growing states.
    And it's already been mentioned many times that researchers don't find the bee's navigational abilities are impaired unless they expose the bees to neonics artificially in the lab.
    Please cite the research where bees in the field were studied for navigational impairment.....

  15. #15
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    For those who criticize the feeding of bees in the lab, what is your suggestion for a research methodology that would give more accurate results?
    If a specific pesticide has unintended consequences in the real world that both the manufacturer of the pesticide and the regulatory authorities overlooked, then the beekeepers themselves are likely to take notice. Like when keeper Keith Jarrett mentioned a few days ago: "the fungicide Pristine [pyraclostrobin] is a death sentence on queen cell production. Most of the cell buildiers in Cali are kept far away from any almond blooming orchard during the month of March."

  16. #16
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    I think one of the key points in Dr. Frazier's lecture is that the pollen tested from the migratory hives had 20 times the pesticide residue as the non-migratory hives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta Bay View Post
    Worth having a listen. From the 2013 ABF Conference.

    Dr James Frazier: http://abfnet.org/associations/10537...%20Frazier.mp3.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    so, if we take your theory on its face, then takeing 2nd year hives and running the test would be the only valuable way to tell.

    Whats really missing here in all this debate and argument, is basic problem solving techniques. Every one of the test/experiments so far is based around testing a conclusion. so far none of which have born any real fruit.

    Problem solving in this case is actually very simple. if you use lets say a Shainin problem technique. you need good hives and bad, find the differences. so find us some CCD hives, and let the real testing begin.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Why some hives DON'T get CCD is of little significance--the issue of importance is why some hives DO get CCD.
    And this is your shortsightedness, IMO. Refusing to look at ALL the data.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #19
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Why some hives DON'T get CCD is of little significance--the issue of importance is why some hives DO get CCD.
    Given that No hives in Australia get CCD despite heavy use of neonics, is it likely neonics cause CCD? Or more likely that some pathogen in some USA bees, but absent in Australian bees causes CCD?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: New Study Shows Bees Become Disoriented After Neonics Exposure

    it seems rather obvious to me that lab research (autopsy) should be done on all suspected CCD bees. At the same time testing of the hives themselves should take place. This would give us a true starting spot to start drawing conclusions. Also it appears to me that the greatest losses come with commercial beeks that transport bees long distances--- stress. Also these bees may be subject to a lack of natural forage thus not the mixture of nutrients non-migratories would have, Just the HO of a new beek.

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