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  1. #41

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Ha Ha is that what is meant by the HITS method
    Actually head in the sand (HITS) refers to those who state ‘I don’t test for ‘em, and I don’t treat’ and then have the audacity to claim that ‘mites aren’t a problem’.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,121

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    > just that it's a lot harder to know a feral survivor, than it is to say, "feral survivor".

    Size is a good indicator. Natural comb bees are noticeably smaller than recent swarms from typical large cell comb.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,079

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    It's hard to identify a problem when there aren't a bunch of hives dying to indicate it.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Liberty, Indiana, USA
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    167

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Beeman: if I'm not treating my bees, what good does it do to count mites? They aren't going anywhere, so bees are going to have to find a way to coexist with them. If untreated bees DO find a way to live with mites it makes counting mites irrelevant. If I'm not going to treat I figure out if varroa killed my hive post mortem. At that point my bees are dead, but so are the mites at killed those bees.

    My head isn't in the sand. Whenever there are paradigm shifts in any discipline the initial challenges to established practices are ridiculed. People practicing treatment free shouldn't be belittled. If you don't believe that bees can make it on their own there are other forum sections to read.

    I am here telling of things that are Working in my operation as I believe others are. Why would anyone get on here and lie about success they are having with treatment free practices?
    Jason Bruns
    LetMBee.com YouTube

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    460

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Actually head in the sand (HITS) refers to those who state ‘I don’t test for ‘em, and I don’t treat’ and then have the audacity to claim that ‘mites aren’t a problem’.
    What do you call beekeepers who don't test for mites and treat everything?
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  6. #46

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by LetMBee View Post
    Beeman: if I'm not treating my bees, what good does it do to count mites?
    Do you also claim that mites aren't a problem?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  7. #47

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    What do you call beekeepers who don't test for mites and treat everything?
    This has already been rehashed over a multitude of pages. Today I was simply making sure there was no misunderstanding...again...of the HITS definition. The main focus is not testing and then claiming that they aren't a problem.
    As I clearly stated in my original thread....I don't have any problem with folks being treatment free....I don't have any problem with the live or let die approach to selection. This was never a slam on treatment free folks. Just don't try to tell me that you haven't tested for mites AND that they aren't a problem...because if you haven't tested you don't know (ergo...head in the sand). I believe, particularly for new beekeepers, that they know and recognize the magnitude of the enemy.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Liberty, Indiana, USA
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    167

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Beemandan: they are a problem in some hives and evidently NOT a problem in most of the hives. Out of 30 I lose 4-6 every year. Varroa evidence is normally present, but I don't think there are any hives in Indiana without varroa. So I am left with.... Did varroa kill them or were they just a contributing factor?
    Jason Bruns
    LetMBee.com YouTube

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,079

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Dan, would you agree that consistently low loss rates (lower than treated) would indicate that there isn't a problem? Is that not the best best and ultimate method of testing?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    460

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    This has already been rehashed over a multitude of pages. Today I was simply making sure there was no misunderstanding...again...of the HITS definition. The main focus is not testing and then claiming that they aren't a problem.
    As I clearly stated in my original thread....I don't have any problem with folks being treatment free....I don't have any problem with the live or let die approach to selection. This was never a slam on treatment free folks. Just don't try to tell me that you haven't tested for mites AND that they aren't a problem...because if you haven't tested you don't know (ergo...head in the sand). I believe, particularly for new beekeepers, that they know and recognize the magnitude of the enemy.
    Fair enough. There certainly seem to be plenty of people who think you can put a package in box of foundationless frames in the spring and come back in the fall and harvest the honey.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  11. #51
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Have you seen any of those people in here?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  12. #52
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Let us remember that while we Americans call it the "Bond Method," the original term from John Kefuss' publication is "Bond TEST." It is the ultimate test, and the only one that matters. Who cares if our method of testing doesn't fit what someone else wants us to do. We're not trying to do what they're trying to do.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #53
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    Aug 2012
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    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Have you seen any of those people in here?
    No, not really, and that's part of the problem. All new beekeepers by default are TF. That doesn't mean they have made a conscious or intelligent decision to go in either direction. Regardless they still get lumped in as TF because they aren't treating.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  14. #54
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Adam, so you're saying that these newbees really are dragging our success rates down such as reported in the Bee Informed National Survey where it shows there is no difference between treated and not treated success rates?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  15. #55
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    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Adam, so you're saying that these newbees really are dragging our success rates down such as reported in the Bee Informed National Survey where it shows there is no difference between treated and not treated success rates?
    That's possible. Though to be fair, said newbees probably aren't bothering to fill out the Bee Informed National Survey either.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  16. #56

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Dan, would you agree that consistently low loss rates (lower than treated) would indicate that there isn't a problem? Is that not the best best and ultimate method of testing?
    First Solomon, I don't think you can say that treatment free beekeepers consistently have lower loss rates that treated.

    Solomon…I really didn’t want to get caught up in all of this but….
    In my opinion, you can compare your survival rates with another beekeeper who has a different treatment philosophy and still not gain anything without comparing many other variables. You know that.

    Mostly in spring I get calls or emails, and see many posts on beesource by new beekeepers lamenting hive failures. All too often it appears that mites were the cause of the collapse. And, I contend that in practically every failure varroa are part of the equation. If you haven’t taken an objective measurement….you don’t know. Mites are a tax on your colony. They impact your bees’ ability to contend with every other parasite and pest. They weaken our bees and impact productivity. There are so many consequences.

    I only want people, especially new beekeepers to understand the significance of this parasite. And if they truly understand the pest and choose a treatment free path…I say fine.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Dan, I could care less about other beekeepers and their philosophies. I want you to square your presuppositions with the evidence of my bees. If a bunch of hives aren't dying, it only follows that there isn't a problem. That is the test. You know I speak from experience. Explain my experience.

    Why do you think beekeepers in the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum do not understand what they're doing and have not chosen that path? Why is it your duty to provide the disclaimers?


    You have no requirement to get caught up in this. I'll be awaiting your inevitable "final word" and then eventual return to the argument. It's a bit transparent.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,871

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Sol - I think much depends on the credibility of the observations. I have read your posts long enough to conclude that you are knowledgeable and truthful. Other folks who report results on line don't have that credibility (at least with me, yet) and I need them to confirm their observations with a properly done test for me to ascribe competence to their posts. If someone doesn't care what I think and doesn't want to test, that's fine with me.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  19. #59
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    May 2013
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    Tineo, Asturias, SPAIN
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    184

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    At the risk of stating the obvious, there are millions of species across the planet that have adapted to parasites and diseases without the intervention of human beings.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    1,137

    Default Re: Treatment Free: It's a path, not a solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Dan, I could care less about other beekeepers and their philosophies.
    And that is your right, it is also a source of failure for many others. There are those who take the ultimate test without themselves or their bees being ready for the test. ARBeekeepers rules are a good self exam to take before taking the plunge.

    It is not your job to pave the way for others to make it to the promised land of TF. You have spent many hours simply repeating that it exists to many who will never believe. Thank you for that.

    There are those who recognize that they or their bees are not capable of taking the test yet. They are not wrong, at least for themselves, here they do not seem to be welcome to speak of anything less than complete devotion to TF.

    My way or the highway is your right, just not as helpful. I congratulate you that you were able to breed from your survivors. For those with less skill or dead bees a slightly longer path to TF really might be a responsible choice.

    Keep the faith, forgive the sinners.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

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