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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Sergey, would you ban or jail all nurses because of the negligence of one?
    Regards, Barry

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    If native pollinators are being killed by a neonic product in public spaces, even when used according to the label, then there IS a problem.

    While the Target incident was more recent and spectacular, the Hillsboro tree was sprayed in March! That's a good three months time lag between application and the bee deaths.

    Something is amiss with Safari.
    Last edited by WLC; 07-15-2013 at 05:28 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Barry, we are not talking about negligence . We are talking about proper use of a product. to make it fit our switching of subject matter, a medicine. and if that proper administration of medication caused death. yes I would say it needs to be banned. Nearly all medication has a list of side effects. many even list death. are they banned? No. Given that can we be assured that pesticides that kill pollinators would be banned? no. I say we come up with something that can be applied to bees that will kill plants that may threaten them. Such as an herbicide in a dust form that will kill corn and soybeans.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Read the article in the OP!

    "The Oregon Department of Agriculture suspects they were killed by improper application of pesticide."

    Sounds like negligence to me.
    Regards, Barry

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    What about Hillsboro? Sounds like they followed the labet to me.

    Here's the Issue in context.

    Bumble bees cannot detoxify neonics nearly as well as Honeybees can.

    The LD50 of an insecticide is determined on Honeybees, NOT bumble bees.

    They could have applied the product according to lable months before the Linden trees flowered, and there still would have been a bumble bee kill.

    I'm not convinced that it's strictly an applicator error. Certainly not in the Hillsboro case.

    I think that you cannot use Safari anytime before flowering without impacting native pollinators like bumble bees.

    The label is wrong!

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Sergey, would you ban or jail all nurses because of the negligence of one?
    At least in our hospital if nurse or doctor made "applicator mistake" - it would be all-hospital system consequence - they would ban "applicator" until it is clear that it is safe to use it. After such accident, obviously, all precautions will be made do not repeat it again. If some device or chemical would be found harmful to patients, of coarse it would be banned until issue resolved. But I do see your point - not all "nurse" should be banned - the source of the problem (which is a chemical in this case) should be banned until it is clear that it is safe. You have a good point.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Barry, we are not talking about negligence . We are talking about proper use of a product.
    So far the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture has NOT made a determination that any proper applications of Safari SG caused the deaths of any bees. In June in Hillsboro, Oregon 100 dead bumblebees were found underneath this linden tree that was sprayed with Safari SG in March http://imageshack.com/a/img195/5088/46lq.jpg but maybe the nectar of that particular tree was toxic. The toxicity of linden tree nectar is known to vary from year to year and tree to tree.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm not convinced that it's strictly an applicator error.
    I'm not convinced about all the other speculation people are throwing out here. Until more facts are forthcoming from those in the know, I'll refrain from speculation.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    I'm not speculating.

    There are a number of studies showing how sensitive native bumble bees are to neonics, even when applied according to label.

    It's a known issue with neonics.

    Let's put it this way,

    if you want to get rid of those pesky bumble bees that are competing with your Honeybees, apply a neonic product to a plant, according to the label, a few months before it blooms.

    Your Honeybees will do alot better than the bumble bees will.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm not speculating. There are a number of studies showing how sensitive native bumble bees are to neonics, even when applied according to label.
    What real world field studies have shown that foraging bumblebees are killed or seriously impaired from neonics that were properly applied according to the label?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0066375

    The question is: do they mean that you can't apply it to flowering plants? Or, do they mean that you can't apply it to plants while they are flowering?

    One interpretation makes sense. The other one is ridiculous.

    All that you need to do is mow the lawn to apply the product (clothianidin).

    Mow, apply the product, water (all in early spring), and see how the clover blooms when you don't mow the lawn frequently enough.
    Last edited by WLC; 07-15-2013 at 06:14 PM.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    ... maybe the nectar of that particular tree was toxic. The toxicity of linden tree nectar is known to vary from year to year and tree to tree.
    Nonsense - see my post above. Linden trees produce high quality honey in Europe, which regarded as a medicinal. My theory is that linden trees are known to be a natural detoxifiers - they adsorb dangerous elements from the environment and bury them inside. Since Safari is systemic, it is well possible that tree just accumulate too much (trying to detoxify) so the nectar/sap/whichever become toxic. The insinuation that linden tee itself is poisonous is a bogus - we use linden flowers for medicinal tea.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm not convinced about all the other speculation people are throwing out here. Until more facts are forthcoming from those in the know, I'll refrain from speculation.
    Hooray....


    Sevin dust applied to my grapes kills every Japenese beetle that gets in it.... Who speaks for the beetles? why do a bunch of bumbles rate higher than say a green horn worm??

    Seriously though.. why is the bees more important than the tree that was intended to be protected??? if it was sprayed in march for something (don't know what) it obviously was problematic enough that someone felt the need to protect the tree from something.... so what about those bugs?

    As mentioned the number of bees killed is HIGHLY suspect, and if you do the math, the number of bees killed was .00000000000057 % of just washington....

  14. #54
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    eolia, lincoln county, mo.
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    WLC; maybe i missed it..... where is the toxicology report that says both incidents were tied to safari? if one incident was incorrect application than fine and proper punishment are in order. but if there is no solid proof of the cause of death all the back and forth mean nothing. you can't fight an enemy effectively if you don't know the enemy. lets determine the cause fior certain and then move to correct the problem.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    By the way, the half life of clothianidin in some soils is 15 years.

    Anyone planting clover fields?

    Well, if Bombus impatiens gets knocked off...

    There are plenty of them (over 70% of bumble bees in the east)). They compete with Honeybees. Also, they're known hosts/reservoirs of DWV.

    I could see why a beekeeper would spray Linden trees with Safari in early March.

    Those pesky Bombus impatiens.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Abstract says: "after residues had dried, colonies were confined to [treated] forage for six days"

    "Confined to forage" = forced exposure = a NON-real world field study.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Try reading the whole study.

    People use this clothianidin containing product on their lawns to treat grubs.

    Mow, treat, and water.

    I would be more concerned about clover fields planted after a clothianidin coated seed crop was planted on a particular soil type.

    You can get pretty high clothianidin residue levels that way.

  18. #58
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    eolia, lincoln county, mo.
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    WLC; You can see why any beekeeper woukd apply safari. So now it's monsanto and beeks, WOW!

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    If I didn't know that DWV could replicate in Bombus impatiens, and that at least one researcher suspects that Bombus impatiens can carry strains of DWV that are pathogenic to bees (via ingestion yet), I would say 'Wow!' too.

    It looks like the Target incident provided us with a weapon against Bombus impatiens/DWV. Safari.

    Strange but true.

    Besides, Bombus impatiens isn't on the red list, and it's numbers are rising.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Try reading the whole study. People use this clothianidin containing product on their lawns to treat grubs.
    Bayer doesn't make any lawn care products that contain clothianidin as far as I can tell http://www.bayeradvanced.com/lawn-care/products Bayer does have lawn care products containing imidacloprid and a pyrethroid and an organophosphate.

    Retail stores like Home Depot and Lowe's do not carry enough inventory of lawn care products containing neonics for homeowners in any given suburb to treat even 1 in every 50 home yards per year. And only a small percentage of homeowners sign up for a Chemlawn type service. So the nectar of a large majority of dandelions and white clover flowers in suburban lawns will not contain any kind of insecticide. The study did not determine that free living foraging pollinators will drink harmful amounts of neonics from lawn flowers in a typical suburban setting.

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