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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Hooray.... Who speaks for the beetles? why do a bunch of bumbles rate higher than say a green horn worm?? ...
    Well, did you hear about native pollinators/species? Bumblebees are one of them. And they are disappearing I do understand that you personally do not care, but, believe or not - many others DO care:
    "One bumblebee species that was once common throughout its range from Georgia State to Ontario, Canada has all but disappeared. A recent survey at places where Bombus affinis has been collected previously turned up empty handed in all but one location. Just a single bee was found on a woodland sunflower in southern Ontario's Pinery Provincial Park.

    Bombus affinis used to frequent the farmlands, marshes and woods of eastern North America. It's been seen visiting many different kinds of plants, including ones that play important economic or ecological roles.

    Although researchers at Toronto's York University captured 9,000 bumblebees from 2005 to 2007, they didn't find B. affinis among these at 42 locations. They searched sites in 14 states where the bees were collected before, including South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Maine.

    A more detailed survey of wild bees around Guelph in southern Ontario finds that this isn't the only native bumblebee species to have disappeared there in the last 35 years. Two other Bombus species (B. pensylvanicus and B. ashtoni) that had been collected in the early 1970s were not among those recently netted. The region used to be particularly rich in bees, with 14 Bombus species identified in earlier surveys.

    This research provides the first quantitative evidence from North America indicating the severity of recent losses among native pollinators. In Europe where bumblebees are more closely monitored, findings show that half the continent's species are declining. Three species of bumblebees have gone extinct in United Kingdom alone.

    The reasons for a bee population's decline likely vary among species and habitats. Two agricultural activities could be extensively harming bumblebees, although the ramifications have yet to be adequately investigated in North America. Imported bees used for pollinating plants grown commercially in greenhouses are known to introduce diseases to their wild relatives. As well, a group of insecticides called neonicotinoids, that are highly toxic to bees, have been applied to North American crops since the early 1990s. "
    http://www.currentresults.com/Wildli...ees-802141.php
    Серёжа, Sergey

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I do understand that you personally do not care, but, believe or not - many others DO care:
    The people who say they care (e.g. the pollinator protection groups) have not displayed much interest in issues that substantially impact the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat; e.g. they did not protest the Biofuels Mandate of 2007 http://www.ethanolrfa.org/pages/rene...fuel-standard/ which is one of the main reasons alot of conservation reserve program land has been converted to corn production since 2007. Also the reason alot of farmers have invested in technology to convert wet, swampy areas of their farm (where wildflowers used to grow) to corn and soybean fields. And the reason they have been tearing down tree shelter belts and fence lines (along which wildflowers used to grow) to make more room for corn fields. Instead, the focus of pollinator protection groups has been about the largely hypothetical and imaginary harm that neonicotinoid pesticides are allegedly doing. The net result of this situation is that the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat is in continuing to decline, hence wild pollinator populations will continue to decline. Worse, even when you explain all this to pollinator enthusiasts they don't seem to care about all those non-pesticide related changes going on in agriculture, but instead to continue to stay focused on the goal of limiting or banning neonicotinoids.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Just out of curiosity, how many "real world field studies" has Monsanto, Bayer, and Syngenta conducted on neonics and their effects on pollinators? And please don't cite that one Bayer-funded research paper where the bees were only exposed in the field for TWO WEEKS, please show us some examples of long-term, "real world field studies" that demonstrate the safety of neonics to bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Abstract says: "after residues had dried, colonies were confined to [treated] forage for six days"

    "Confined to forage" = forced exposure = a NON-real world field study.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    The people who say they care (e.g. the pollinator protection groups) have not displayed much interest in issues that substantially impact the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat...
    I am sorry, you picked another subject - I was talking about bumblebees decline - do you have anything to say on bumblebees subject? If not, than what was the purpose of your comment? Confuse readers? You have a tendency to switch from one subject to another - it makes communication (discussion?) impossible, because we are talking about different matters. My post was particularly about bumblebees compared to green horn worm by gmcharlie. My point was that there is substantial difference between native specie, the bumblebee and gmcharlie's green horn worm. The difference is that bumblebees is in decline and green horn worm is doing OK (according gmcharlie). Do you agree, that there is a difference?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how many "real world field studies" has Monsanto, Bayer, and Syngenta conducted on neonics and their effects on pollinators?
    Real world field studies are part of the massive data package Bayer and other registrants submit to the EPA. Example: Valent USA, the registrant of Safari SG wrote on their website: "Valent products are extensively tested according to rigorous scientific guidelines and are labeled to protect the health and safety of consumers, workers and the environment, including pollinators." http://www.valent.com/newsroom/newsr...e-incident.cfm
    If those "rigorous scientific [testing] guidelines" were inadequate then there would be lots of incidents of unintended pollinator kills because the registrants failed to test their products adequately in the real world prior to registration. But there are few such incidents which is an indication the testing protocols are adequate.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I am sorry, you picked another subject - I was talking about bumblebees decline - do you have anything to say on bumblebees subject? If not, than what was the purpose of your comment? Confuse readers? You have a tendency to switch from one subject to another - it makes communication (discussion?) impossible, because we are talking about different matters. My post was particularly about bumblebees compared to green horn worm by gmcharlie. My point was that there is substantial difference between native specie, the bumblebee and gmcharlie's green horn worm. The difference is that bumblebees is in decline and green horn worm is doing OK (according gmcharlie). Do you agree, that there is a difference?

    Your so far off Sergey, its not even funny..... neither is in any way endangered... The worm, or bumbles as a whole..... (or honeybees for that matter) My point which you totaly missed was sarcasm......... We (you and big dawg) stand up and scream about a few bees, and yet I would bet a lot of money you have pesticides in your home, and use them... Hypocrisy.. kill one bug but the other is sacred??? why is a roach motel fine, or sevin on your fruit?? Most of us have ant poison...... the list goes on... Even you greenies use "soap and vinegar" to kill bugs... why is that okay, but its not okay for someone else to target a pest they didn't want?????

    Do the Math. figure out its just a super tiny percentage and that in the real picture its not a problem
    And that area in Ontario your commenting about, do you have a clue as to the cause? Cause it sure is not farming....nothing there to farm.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    1. why is a roach motel fine,
    2. Even you greenies use "soap and vinegar" to kill bugs... why is that okay, but its not okay for someone else to target a pest they didn't want?????
    1. becasue they effectively target the pest.
    2. I have not heard anyone complain about a targeted insect. it is the missing the target that concerns them.

    Are you saying you think they internationally targeted those Bumblebees?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    It may be they did... I don't have a clue why someone would spray a linden tree at the mall...??? beats me...
    What I amtrying to say is someone used that pesticide on purpose. some off target bees got killed... Not anywhere near a statewide or nationwide crisis..... every year house burn down from roach bombs think of all the poor mice......
    that number of bumbles in a small area is a drop in a very large pond.... and yet 1000,s of articles and hand wringing..... its insane!

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Charlie, this is one instance where we actually got to observe the bee deaths because they died in a heavily visited asphalt parking lot where they stuck out like sore thumbs. But what about when Safari is applied to trees in a field or weeds in someone's back yard, or, when the bees don't die right away and actually fly a ways before they die? Would anyone really notice? Of course they wouldn't, and THAT is the real problem--what are the impacts upon pollinators from these products that we can't see?

    There is no doubt--none--that bees are in decline, the key is to find out what role these poisons are having in their decline.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    It may be they did... I don't have a clue why someone would spray a linden tree at the mall...??? beats me...
    What I amtrying to say is someone used that pesticide on purpose. some off target bees got killed... Not anywhere near a statewide or nationwide crisis..... every year house burn down from roach bombs think of all the poor mice......
    that number of bumbles in a small area is a drop in a very large pond.... and yet 1000,s of articles and hand wringing..... its insane!

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Charlie, this is one instance where we actually got to observe the bee deaths because they died in a heavily visited asphalt parking lot where they stuck out like sore thumbs. But what about when Safari is applied to trees in a field or weeds in someone's back yard, or, when the bees don't die right away and actually fly a ways before they die? Would anyone really notice? Of course they wouldn't, and THAT is the real problem--what are the impacts upon pollinators from these products that we can't see? There is no doubt--none--that bees are in decline, the key is to find out what role these poisons are having in their decline.
    The range and abundance of certain SPECIES of bumblebees have been in decline, but that's been true for millenia; i.e. the range of some species contracts whereas the ranges of others expand. And the declines predate the time (~2003-2006) when neonic usage became widespread. Obviously the bumblebee species that was present in the Wilsonville, Oregon asphalt covered parking lot was wildly abundant despite 5-10 years of neonic usage in the region.

    The Wilsonville bumblebee kill was a rare accident - the applicator sprayed during bloom when he shouldn't have. So bee kills will occur only during rare cases of product misuse. So your question: "what about when Safari is applied to trees in a field or weeds in someone's back yard, or, when the bees don't die right away and actually fly a ways before they die" is not really a reasonable question to ask because not many people are spraying trees in bloom plus only a tiny fraction of flowering trees in Wilsonville, Oregon region are sprayed with anything. If most of them were sprayed, then Home Depot, Lowes, the farm supply stores and ag chemical distributors that landscapers buy from would stock huge inventories of neonic insecticides, but they don't.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Guys I'm a pretty plain and simple guy but there seems to be a battle of two sides both with the intent of helping out bees. Do insecticides kill bees, of course they do. Are they solely responsible for CCD my guess is no. The reports I've read and struggled to uinderstand seem inconclusive on many fronts. My humble opinion is that chemicals coupled with lack of natural forage, mites and viruses have all combined to lead us to this point. so maybe we can all agree to tackle this problem together and let egos and agendas be put aside.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffnmo View Post
    Guys I'm a pretty plain and simple guy but there seems to be a battle of two sides both with the intent of helping out bees. Do insecticides kill bees, of course they do. Are they solely responsible for CCD my guess is no. The reports I've read and struggled to uinderstand seem inconclusive on many fronts. My humble opinion is that chemicals coupled with lack of natural forage, mites and viruses have all combined to lead us to this point. so maybe we can all agree to tackle this problem together and let egos and agendas be put aside.

    Then our "argument" has not been in vain... at least one person (several I am sure) have actually read both sides... and thought it out...... for many times that has not been the case on blog like this....... and is definatly not the case in the media....

    I am sure most argueing for common sense agree with you and don't have an agenda, except not to stop things that actualy help bees, and farming.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    except not to stop things that actualy help bees, and farming.
    Within the past few days an Oregon congressman and 3 anti-pesticide groups decided even the neonic crop seed treatments should be banned (not just the ornamental plant type use treatments):
    http://blumenauer.house.gov/images/s..._One_Pager.pdf

    Excerpt:
    "The Save Americaís Pollinators Act of 2013 directs the Environmental Protection Agency to suspend use of the most bee-toxic neonicotinoids for use in seed treatment, soil application, or foliar treatment on bee attractive plants within 180 daysÖ"

    Supported by: Center for Food Safety, Xerces Society, NW Center for Alternatives to Pesticide

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    The proposed legislation doesn't surprise me. This country has developed a bad case of knee jerk reaction. We think we know what is wrong and have all the answers which often leads us into another catastrophy. I live in a rural area where at present our natural forages are good and you'll find many bumbles competing for clover with the honey bees. right across the road and for miles around we have planted fields. Since I just put in my 2 hives in April I don't have years of practical experience but my mentor does and he feels my hives are in excellent shape. I could lose all this winter but am not going to panic or look solrly at only one potential problem.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post

    And only a small percentage of homeowners sign up for a Chemlawn type service.
    I'm sure you have numbers to back up that atatement Yes/??
    Iím really not that serious

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    The people who say they care (e.g. the pollinator protection groups) have not displayed much interest in issues that substantially impact the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat; e.g. they did not protest the Biofuels Mandate of 2007
    Yes we did
    Iím really not that serious

  17. #77
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    Cool Re: Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    The range and abundance of certain SPECIES of bumblebees have been in decline, but that's been true for millenia;
    you have no data to back that claim.)
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond;
    Obviously the bumblebee species that was present in the Wilsonville, Oregon asphalt covered parking lot was wildly abundant despite 5-10 years of neonic usage in the region.
    Speculation on your part

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    The Wilsonville bumblebee kill was a rare accident - the applicator sprayed during bloom when he shouldn't have. So bee kills will occur only during rare cases of product misuse.
    Again speculation
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    not many people are spraying trees in bloom plus only a tiny fraction of flowering trees in Wilsonville, Oregon region are sprayed with anything.
    you don't know that
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    If most of them were sprayed, then Home Depot, Lowes, the farm supply stores and ag chemical distributors that landscapers buy from would stock huge inventories of neonic insecticides, but they don't.
    And again speculation on your part.
    Iím really not that serious

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