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  1. #401
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,738

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I must be crazy, Tim wrote:

    If you confine a queen to a single deep. She'll lay around 6 frames at 80% each. 5600*6=33600/21=1600 egg per day average.

    We usually get closer to 12-13 frames of brood with the queen confined to one deep. Must be doing something wrong.

    Crazy Roland

  2. #402
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
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    NE Calif.
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    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Crazy Roland aint crazy. Here is the best thing I ever saw written on the subject.

    http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/a...roodframes.htm

  3. #403
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I must be crazy, Tim wrote:

    If you confine a queen to a single deep. She'll lay around 6 frames at 80% each. 5600*6=33600/21=1600 egg per day average.

    We usually get closer to 12-13 frames of brood with the queen confined to one deep. Must be doing something wrong.

    Crazy Roland
    That's pretty awesome getting 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box????

  4. #404
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by loggermike View Post
    Crazy Roland aint crazy. Here is the best thing I ever saw written on the subject.

    http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/a...roodframes.htm
    Only problem bees don't layout 100% of a frame. There's always pollen/honey rings around the brood areas. Not sure how he comes up with 6400 cells to a frame. 44*80rows comes out to 3520 cells per side 7040 per frame.

    Course everyone writes what they THINK bees should be doing....

  5. #405
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,532

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    That's pretty awesome getting 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box????
    Not as good as you getting 18!
    "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."

    Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?
    Regards, Barry

  6. #406
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Not as good as you getting 18!
    "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."

    Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?
    That was in response to 1500 egg PDA. 1500*21= 31500/4200(60%)= 5.6 frames.31500/5600(80%)=7.5 frames.

  7. #407
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Not as good as you getting 18!
    "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."

    Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?
    18 frames in 3 deeps. I'm still trying to figure out how you can fit 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box. Some kind of trick with the hive tool to do that?

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
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    NE Calif.
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    2,309

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I believe Roland moves frames of brood above the excluder,to keep an open brood nest. Tried their system(as written up in ABJ) once many moons ago. Got a lot of honey (and a sore back).

  9. #409
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by loggermike View Post
    I believe Roland moves frames of brood above the excluder,to keep an open brood nest. Tried their system(as written up in ABJ) once many moons ago. Got a lot of honey (and a sore back).
    Why use a excluder if she can only lay 12 frames of brood?

    I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood.

  10. #410
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Using 3 deeps the brood is egg shaped area amongst the 3 boxes. Hives are supered early enough not to let them start back filling brood area. July when they start brooding down. 3 rd deep gets filled with honey.

  11. #411
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by loggermike View Post
    I believe Roland moves frames of brood above the excluder,to keep an open brood nest. Tried their system(as written up in ABJ) once many moons ago. Got a lot of honey (and a sore back).

    What do you consider a lot of honey?

  12. #412

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I tried a many hive types, including a five deep with drawn comb. I have never seen more than 5-8 full (!) brood combs of brood. Deep Dadant frames. Full means: brood only.



    Of course with lots of space the broodnest is spread a little more. But all in all, there is the same amount of brood in the hives. No more or less. Of course the total amount depends on the quality of the queen and breed.

    Also the egg laying rate depends on outside daily maximum temperatures. At least for Carnolians. This has been found out by three scientists yonks ago. I tested it and I can verify it from my close observations of brood development.



    The formula is: egg laying per day y = x * 22.8295 1.4254 high
    Where x = is the daily maximum temperature.

    Made an Excel spreadsheet with lots of features. Will post it soon.

    I went the opposite way, keeping the queen confined to two Warré boxes with eight frames each. (But 5.1 mm foundation = more cells per frame.) So 16 relatively small sized brood combs. Relative = compared to Langstroth frames. The combs are full of brood like the one shown above. Pollen and honey stored overhead the brood nest.

    There is no visible difference between those colonies and the ones on five deeps, or on larger frame formats. It seems to me that in all hives types there is the same amount of brood. I would be very interested if you could make pictures of all the broodcombs in one of your hives. To get an idea of the overall square inch of brood.

    Bernhard

  13. #413
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,779

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Not as good as you getting 18!
    "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."

    Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?
    Rarely do I ever see anything in the outer two frames, the wall combs, than honey. Rarely do I ever see and brood on these frames. Maybe some drone brood from time to time. About the only time of year I see top bar to bottom bar/end bar to end bar capped brood is during Spring buildup. Maybe I need to get into my brood boxes more in the Fall.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  14. #414
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,532

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood.
    One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.
    Regards, Barry

  15. #415
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,471

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I would agree that 12 to 13 "stick to stick" frames of brood is the maximum laying capability of any single queen....anywhere. That is an observation based on splitting thousands and thousands of large hives through the years at the very peak of egg laying. Of course with an open brood nest with three or more hive bodies there is going to be brood on a lot more frames but if you measured and calculated the total area in square inches it is still going to calculate out about the same. Roland's example where a queen is excluded into a single and frames rotated out is probably going to give you the most (also the most work for the beekeeper) simply because there is always open comb available and the queen dosent have to roam the hive looking for open comb.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #416
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
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    2,309

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    The year I ran hives like Roland, I learned a lot about queens. Some,especially the Italians would lay wall to wall in that single deep.And push every drop of honey above the excluder. Older queens and carns would tend to get plugged up with pollen and nectar, then start swarm cells.

    Now days I give the queens all the room they want in the spring, but shaking bees and pulling brood for nucs keeps the swarming down.Honey production isnt our goal any more. Why bother , with a multi year drought going on.We are in survival mode with a lot of feeding going on.



    Bernhard said:

    "Of course with lots of space the broodnest is spread a little more. But all in all, there is the same amount of brood in the hives. No more or less. Of course the total amount depends on the quality of the queen and breed."

    I agree.

  17. #417
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.
    I extract 3-5 DIFFERENT TIMES

  18. #418
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.
    You really have NO CLUE what a strong hive looks like do you????;

  19. #419
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,532

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    I extract 3-5 DIFFERENT TIMES
    And perhaps Roland extracts 8-10 different times!!
    Regards, Barry

  20. #420
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I'm pretty clear on the different characteristics/behaviors that Tim is applying.

    I think that the fact that the brood nest can actually move up during a good flow, therefore leaving plenty of room in the lower part of the 3 deep configuration for nectar to cure, and simultaneously pushing up honey stores into the 7 supers, is something that's allowing the extra space for brood. When the flow slows down, the nectar storage area below clears out leaving space for new brood.

    It's a very clever use of the unlimited/open brood-nest concept.

    I think that the 'fat bee' model also makes a lot of bees, that are stuck in sub-castes below forager, available for rearing brood and turning nectar into honey.

    It's almost as if the 3 deeps are acting like a honey/brood pump. Up and down, up and down.
    Last edited by WLC; 09-07-2013 at 10:20 AM.

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