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  1. #601
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,079

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I'm confused.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #602
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,739

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Its all coffee shop talk, the whole lot of it
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #603
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,606

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    SQKCRK, you are just dizzy from watching the pea and the 3 shells. (which shell has hte pea under it)

    Crazy Roland

  4. #604

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I put up a calculation sheet which uses the correlation found between outside daily maximum air temperature and egg laying of the honeybee queen. This has been found by the bee scientist Bretschko and verified by the scientists Bergmann & Bergmann, which also developed a formula.

    From there you can calculate all sorts of things, like number of capped cells, number of nurse bees and such. Of course those numbers are estimated values only. But nevertheless very useful for hive management. I super the hive with new foundation, when there is a significant number of capped cells hatching. Also I know roughly when they start swarming which is when the ratio between bees and brood starts to sink again under 120 % after peaking in Spring.

    The use of the sheet also allows minimal hive inspection, since you know how they develop. Also it allows to discover when somethings going wrong. If you calculated a certain development and it does not happen, somethings going wrong. (Helpful with poisoning incidents.) And so on. Bottom line. I find it useful to backup my gut feeling.

    One drawback: you have to estimate the number of bees and brood cells when they start to brood again in the midst of the winter. Which is February here. You do not need to open all hives, though.

    PDF:
    http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.pdf

    OpenOffice:
    http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.ods

    Excel:
    http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.xls

    Since this model worked very well for me, I wonder how the numbers compare to Tim's reports.

  5. #605
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    thought it was 30 hives on 15 acres,
    Correct... What's stopping them from getting into the 80, other than 3 miles? I have no way of verifying that. I do kniw what was extracted.....

  6. #606
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,694

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Oh the suspense......
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #607
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,079

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Which was what? 90 lbs per hive?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #608
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    473

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    My head is spinning reading this thread. I guess I'll never understand the nuances here, at least not until I buy a hummerbee.

    But, I can figure a few things out, and, I do like Ian's numbers, easy to figure.

    (900 x 180 x $per_pound) - $cost = $bragging_rights.

    All the other banter, it's just fluff. CRA / IRS are the true judge of who wins the $bragging_rights competition. In the end, it's all about money, not honey, and it's only the taxable part that you can spend on the fun stuff, so that's all that matters in the end, what's the bottom line, taxable, after expenses......

    DOH, now it suddenly makes sense, it's september, the month to feed. You guys feed the trolls when it's the season to feed the bees. Suddenly it all starts to make sense.

  9. #609
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Grey County, ON, Canada
    Posts
    101

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Ian, one thing I would like to take away from this... 'Conjecture' is a little insight into your management style, as it seems to work for you... When you pull 8 deeps off of your single do you add a double brood chamber and winter it that way then bust it back in the spring or just let the extra bees die off? Also do you have trouble forcing that many into a single deep using escapes? Sorry to go off topic

  10. #610
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,285

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I don't think that there's going to be a huge amount of difference in honey production, deep for deep, when comparing standard practices vs what Tim is doing.

    However, in terms of commercial operations, Tim is as organic as you can get under the circumstances. His hives are not only sustainable, but Tim has achieved some degree of permaculture.

    Let's not forget his use of 'ferals', as well as his use of tower hives.

    He's not using treatments of any kind, and he is not using supplemental feeding either. Something I would call probiotic beekeeping.

    Add to that that his hives are productive to such an extent, that he's having logistical issues.

    I would characterize his form of 'commercial beekeeping' to be so significantly different, that it's something remarkably new.

    Don't get stuck on the honey production issue. It's not that important to the bigger picture.

    We can only hope that it can be successfully replicated by other beekeepers.

    Myself included.

    The other stuff is peripheral in my opinion.

    There are some recent experiments using bee condos that showed some promise as well.

    My point is this: why aren't more of us trying to see if this type of beekeeping works?

    There's a very real moral imperative in play here.

  11. #611
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,626

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    There's a very real moral imperative in play here.
    Moral imperative?

    This is the Commercial Beekeeping forum. Grozzie2 has it about right:

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    All the other banter, it's just fluff. CRA / IRS are the true judge of who wins ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  12. #612
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Franklin, New Hampshire
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My point is this: why aren't more of us trying to see if this type of beekeeping works?
    @WLC-

    I think the people that have been commenting in this thread and those that subscribed to the thread but don't post are very interested in Tim's approach to bee keeping. But want to know the what/why/where/hows to all of it.

    Many of the people commenting might just want to understand his methods before investing in this approach. Based on the quantity of woodenware required there would need to be a good amount invested in that.

    (This comment- not meant to be a dig at you) Commercial means this is their livelihood and not everyone wants to make the leap before taking the time to understand. I can relate, I run my own consulting business and if I know an investment I make is sure to pay off then you bet I'm going to make it. If I'm not sure, I want to do everything I can to understand before making the final decision.

    It seems like there are many interested in his methods, but are having a hard time piecing together the details. We all have our motives. Some want to know the honey crop while others like myself want to incorporate some of his methods with the methods from other seasoned beekeepers to form a sustainable form of beekeeping for my locale.



    @Tim Ives-

    Would you be willing to start a new thread that shows / explains a more detailed approach to your bee keeping?

    I've watched you're youtube videos and am blown away with what your doing, but would love to understand some of the key fundamentals to your method. It'd be great to understand your methods on a finer level. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
    Last edited by Jared.Downs; 09-10-2013 at 04:55 PM. Reason: spelling

  13. #613
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,903

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I don't think that there's going to be a huge amount of difference in honey production, deep for deep, when comparing standard practices vs what Tim is doing.

    .
    If that is the case... how does one live on the standard commercial production of honey from 150 hives. Even with very high premiums for TF honey, it does not seem like enough.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  14. #614
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,285

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Perhaps you don't understand why sustainable forms of commercial beekeeping are a moral rather than a financial imperative.

    It's simply because there are too many issues surrounding current forms of commercial beekeeping.

    If someone like Tim Ives has achieved a form of sustainable commercial beekeeping, then it becomes the moral thing to do.

    If it's also as lucrative, then it can become a best practice.

    I've been in the Founders' Room of a LEED Platinum skyscraper that has a recently installed green roof, and a couple of bee hives as well.

    It's an example of how a moral imperative can also achieve a financial one. Nearby property values have increased as a result, and it's a model green building.

  15. #615
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,235

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I don't think that there's going to be a huge amount of difference in honey production, deep for deep, when comparing standard practices vs what Tim is doing.

    that's the conclusion i came to as well. in my area, in a good year, it's possible to get 5 medium supers of harvestable honey without feeding syrup using a single deep. i think the biggest factor that allows for tim's impressive harvest per hive is that he has found locations that give him 3 months of 'main flow'

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Let's not forget his use of 'ferals', as well as his use of tower hives.

    there are a number of us using 'ferals', but none that i know of that are able to work them without protection. a more gentle hive here and a more defensive one there is what seems reasonable. with the genetic diversity that tim has across his operation, it seems incredible that all of his colonies can be worked without protection

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I would characterize his form of 'commercial beekeeping' to be so significantly different, that it's something remarkably new.
    not really that different than lusby, webster, et. al., except perhaps finding those exceptional locations

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My point is this: why aren't more of us trying to see if this type of beekeeping works?

    this is the commercial forum wlc, you and i aren't part of 'us'. i think tim probably has gotten the attention of some of the bigger honey producers, although his methods may not be applicable to all locations

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    There's a very real moral imperative in play here.
    are you serious? shall we ban eating chicken while we're at it?

    i'm still trying to understand the mechanism for tim's five years and more on queen longevity.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 09-10-2013 at 06:18 PM. Reason: fixed bubble
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #616
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,285

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    I would love to achieve sustainable permaculture with a tower hive with hybrid Honeybees.

    Don't forget, I've got marked/clipped queens in my hives. I mean the BeeWeavers (commercial queens).

    N'ya Ha!

    PS-You posted your comments inside the quote bubble. Not outside.
    Last edited by WLC; 09-10-2013 at 05:31 PM.

  17. #617
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,739

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Markt View Post
    Ian, one thing I would like to take away from this... 'Conjecture' is a little insight into your management style, as it seems to work for you... When you pull 8 deeps off of your single do you add a double brood chamber and winter it that way then bust it back in the spring or just let the extra bees die off? Also do you have trouble forcing that many into a single deep using escapes? Sorry to go off topic
    I do not add a chamber to my hive arrangement. I manage my hives in singles for most of the year, except for a few weeks I let the queen wander into the second chamber (1st super) to lay until I shake her back down and add an excluder as I prepare for the honey pull.
    There are a lot of bees to fit into the single chamber, but its all about timing. Here the queen starts to slow down brood production in Aug and into Sept. As we push the bees down into the single in September, a lot of those summer foraging bees have died off already, but still see beards on the hives all the same. Those bees die off throughout September, and by the time we move the hives into storage in November the winter cluster is mostly what we see.
    I managed both single and double arrangements for many years. the doubles would tend to go into winter with larger cluster. I found that the cluster in both arrangements were mostly the same by spring.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #618
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,235

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I managed both single and double arrangements for many years. the doubles would tend to go into winter with larger cluster. I found that the cluster in both arrangements were mostly the same by spring.
    very interesting ian. do you find spring build up is stronger when more stores are left for overwintering?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #619
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,739

    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    very interesting ian. do you find spring build up is stronger when more stores are left for overwintering?
    no, spring build up is totally dependent on the type of weather we get to work with. AND the quality of queen
    But, you have to realize Im supplementing my bees with feed. Where as Tim doesnt, so the need to hold so much food stores in reserve
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #620
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: I would like to be a commercial beek

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I would love to achieve sustainable permaculture with a tower hive with hybrid Honeybees.

    Don't forget, I've got marked/clipped queens in my hives.

    N'ya Ha!
    no reason why you shouldn't be able to get that wlc, but some would argue that artificial supercedure isn't exactly sustainable, although i agree it's a good idea in your urban setting.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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