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  1. #1
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    Question prophylactic mite tx's?

    I'm hoping for feedback on this: since varroa seem to be universal, and I hear "when in doubt, consider the problem varroa", wouldn't it make sense to treat hives in spring with OA or any other tx of choice? Would that help? An experienced guy told me this weekend he would establish 1st if there was actually an issue (sugar shake or the lethal alcohol method) and if so, then go for it. If the vermin are truly universal -- and locally I hear of lots of colony failures "due to varroa" -- why wait? Maybe it's a philosophical thing. For me, more like "an ounce of prevention etc, etc". I have a feeling my concept's too simplistic. If so, I'd like to know.

    Thanks for any ideas/philosophies/data .....

    And while I'm at it: how about prophylactic use of beetle traps?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Yes treating early would be a help. Most of the time blind treating is frowned upon, especially if using a hard chemical. Oxalic acid is very low impact on the hive itself so an early treatment without knowing your mite counts wouldn't hurt. However not knowing your initial counts, and post treatment counts we never really know how well the treatment helps.


    Aaron

  3. #3
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlanden View Post
    Maybe it's a philosophical thing.
    That's exactly what it is. Some folks philosophy is only treat when a test shows it's needed, some folks philosophy is don't treat at all, and some folks philosophy is I have too much riding on this I will just treat anyhow.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  4. #4
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    If one study's the graphs on Randy's scientific beekeeping, the answer is yes start treating in March just as the mite load buildup starts and keep it up each month. study his site seriously.
    I don't think many here do, or even understand the graphs by their posts, so many here it seems.

    Those who wait to treat till after july aug sept oct all experience serious loss, and that's fact. read the winter posts from the last 10yrs.
    Merlin, Oregon zone 8

  5. #5
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    start treating in March just as the mite load buildup starts and keep it up each month. study his site seriously.
    Is that what was said? Start treating in March and keep treating every month.....forever?
    Please show me this.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidZ View Post
    If one study's the graphs on Randy's scientific beekeeping, the answer is yes start treating in March just as the mite load buildup starts and keep it up each month. study his site seriously.
    I don't think many here do, or even understand the graphs by their posts, so many here it seems.

    Those who wait to treat till after july aug sept oct all experience serious loss, and that's fact. read the winter posts from the last 10yrs.
    I can only speak for myself, but I treat with OAV in August during the dearth, and in late November, both periods are when the queens have stopped laying (I don't have Italians) so I get to treat once each time, instead of the four times recommended when there is brood. I'm running not more than 20% loss on my treated colonies. But who knows I may lose them all someday. I think the amount of other beeks bees in your area and how they treat greatly affects the spread of varroa.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlanden View Post
    .... why wait? Maybe it's a philosophical thing. For me, more like "an ounce of prevention etc, etc". I have a feeling my concept's too simplistic. If so, I'd like to know.
    .....
    I read (and re-read) Randy Oliver articles at his website. He is methodical, bases his conclusion on data, a commercial guy with his money & effort at stake. In my personal view, he takes very balanced view.

    There are guys out there who religiously feed antibiotics to hive like its honey, even when there is no indication of problem. Then there are guys who treat for varroa with same medication over and over again even when scientific community is screaming about building resistance to particular treatment regimen.

    We can debate until cows come home, but the bottom line is, treating based on test threshold has better chance of prolonging any resistance mites may develop. And we know mites developed resistance to certain treatment regimen in the past.

    Dont have to listen to any particular person or philosophy. Read various published articles, listen to researchers from universities and make your own decision.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    He is methodical, bases his conclusion on data, a commercial guy with his money & effort at stake. In my personal view, he is not on any extreme and takes very balanced view.

    There are guys out there who religiously feed antibiotics to hive like its honey, even when there is no indication of problem. Then there are guys how treat for varroa with same medication over and over again even when scientific community is screaming about building resistance to particular treatment regimen.
    >I don't believe ROliver adopts as practice every method 'proved' in his studies. I've no clue how many 'new' methods he employs in his operation as a result of his studies but would be very interested.

    >Does pointing fingers help? and do you think those who rely on medications heavily are doing it mindlessly?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    >I don't believe ROliver adopts as practice every method 'proved' in his studies. I've no clue how many 'new' methods he employs in his operation as a result of his studies but would be very interested.

    Why dont you ask him ? The articles I read on his website (especially about various treatment methods) all showed actual tests he ran with his hives. Only he can answer as to what combination of those he uses in his hives ALL the time.

    >Does pointing fingers help? and do you think those who rely on medications heavily are doing it mindlessly?
    I am not sure where you got that impression. If feeding antibiotics religiously is what floats your boat, more power to you.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    I am not sure where you got that impression. If feeding antibiotics religiously is what floats your boat, more power to you.
    I have not treated with antibiotics ever, 20 years of keeping bees. I do know many who have to though and they are smart and accomplished beekeepers with many hives on the line and families to feed.
    So does pointing fingers help?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    I have not treated with antibiotics ever, 20 years of keeping bees. I do know many who have to though and they are smart and accomplished beekeepers with many hives on the line and families to feed.
    So does pointing fingers help?
    I know many smart people who had families to feed, but went out of business because they couldn't afford to treat their waste per EPA regulations. Should they be allowed to dump it into a well instead ?

    OP had a reasonable question with some reasonable answers. Lets not make this ridiculously complex and personal.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    I know many smart people who had families to feed, but went out of business because they couldn't afford to treat their waste per EPA regulations. Should they be allowed to dump it into a well instead ?

    Lets not make this ridiculously complex and personal.
    What kind of analogy is that? come on! Stay on topic.

    If feeding antibiotics religiously is what floats your boat, more power to you.
    Yes, don't make it personal.
    There is no benefit to pointing fingers or making hollow accusations.
    There are very few demons out there.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    What kind of analogy is that? come on! Stay on topic.


    Yes, don't make it personal.
    There is no benefit to pointing fingers or making hollow accusations.
    Whats wrong with that analogy ? Its some "smart" people trying to do "what works for them, to feed their family", "don't want finger pointing" and takes any attempt to discuss as "finger pointing". Somebody is tipsy today.

    Hollow accusations ? Are you saying there is no scientific research proving mites developing resistance to treatments when used relentlessly ? Are you saying all the scientific research coming out of universities recommending testing, rotating treatment is some conspiracy and finger pointing ? Are you saying people ignoring that and continuing with blind treatment regimen are "smart" ?

  14. #14
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    Whats wrong with that analogy ? Its some "smart" people trying to do "what works for them, to feed their family", "don't want finger pointing" and takes any attempt to discuss as "finger pointing". Somebody is tipsy today.

    Hollow accusations ? Are you saying there is no scientific research proving mites developing resistance to treatments when used relentlessly ? Are you saying all the scientific research coming out of universities recommending testing, rotating treatment is some conspiracy and finger pointing ? Are you saying people ignoring that and continuing with blind treatment regimen are "smart" ?
    The analogy is ridiculous.

    ?1. yes.
    ?2. no
    ?3. no
    ?4. no

    Know how deep the water is before you jump in.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    The analogy is ridiculous.

    ?1. yes.
    ?2. no
    ?3. no
    ?4. no

    Know how deep the water is before you jump in.
    Thank you for your thoughtful response. Please do write to Randy and complain about how he is pointing fingers and hurting people's feelings.
    Or call up any competent Entomologist and tell them to stop advice on controlled & rotating treatment regimen that includes testing before and after.
    After all, it appears such advice is "finger pointing" for you.

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/figh...ss-knuckles-2/

    Bye.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post

    Know how deep the water is before you jump in.
    winter must be coming to an end, things are going down fast
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  17. #17
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlanden View Post
    For me, more like "an ounce of prevention etc, etc". I have a feeling my concept's too simplistic.
    Since there does not appear to be any treatment that is 100% effective in eradicating mites with one treatment, and since mite propagation is an exponential/geometric progression, then treating early is more effective than treating late.

    Example: If your treatment is 90% effective and you have 10 mites at treatment time, you have one mite left and it would take a long time for that one mite to build up to a threatening population level. If you waited until you had 10,000 mites, you'd still have 1,000 left, and it would only take a few cycles to get back to 10,000. If you wait until you have 50,000 mites, you'd still have 5,000 left and within two or three cycles their levels are back to critical, and your hive is probably dead or absconded or left so crippled and sick that they don't make it through the Winter.

    Treating early is far better than treating late.

    However, it costs time, money and effort to treat, so some people wait for a particular threshold of mite level to occur in order to balance costs.

    You need to decide for yourself what level of infestation you are willing to tolerate in order to make your investments of time and money acceptable to you.

    In my book, that ounce of prevention (or whatever two strips of MAQS weighs) is worth far more than pounds of cure.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  18. #18
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    Thank you for your thoughtful response. Please do write to Randy and complain about how he is pointing fingers and hurting people's feelings.
    Or call up any competent Entomologist and tell them to stop advice on controlled & rotating treatment regimen that includes testing before and after.
    After all, it appears such advice is "finger pointing" for you.

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/figh...ss-knuckles-2/

    Bye.
    My responses answered your questions. No need for any detail as you seem more than willing to create the conversation for yourself.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    If feeding antibiotics religiously is what floats your boat, more power to you.
    It is this kind of accusation, aimed at someone who has never even used antibiotics, never mind the "religiously" part, that is designed to inflame and gets annoying to some beekeepers. Cos this sort of thing does get mindlessly repeated over and over.

    But if the beekeeper on the recieving end ever expresses their frustration, the other acts all surprised hurt and self righteous.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  20. #20
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    Default Re: prophylactic mite tx's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It is this kind of accusation, aimed at someone who has never even used antibiotics, never mind the "religiously" part, that is designed to inflame and gets annoying to some beekeepers. Cos this sort of thing does get mindlessly repeated over and over.

    But if the beekeeper on the recieving end ever expresses their frustration, the other acts all surprised hurt and self righteous.
    Read the thread and point to me where I quoted anyone but the OP or directed my reply towards anyone but the OP, until someone got up all upset.
    Show me where I "accused" specific person, who "never even used antibiotics".

    Come to bee meetings I attend and listen to people who claim they "pack the hive" with Terramycin. Hit-them-hard-hit-them-often. One pack didnt work ? Put two or three packs. At meeting couple of weeks ago, few guys had literal d**k measuring contest about who bought more Terramycin before the recent regulation.

    I will leave up to the readers as to who engaged and derailed otherwise a simple conversation.

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