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Foundationless Frames

18K views 52 replies 23 participants last post by  rhaldridge 
#1 · (Edited)
I see there are many posts about going foundationless. I have read many of them including most of what I find on Michael Bush's website. I am a new beekeeper and I just got a hive(with bees) a week ago. It came with a deep and a medium super. I purchased another super with drawn comb at the same time that I picked up the hive. The beekeeper I purchased them from said he checked three frames in the medium before sealing the hive for me to pick it up. The were full of brood. Based on that, I added the super (with the frames of drawn comb) when I installed the hive on Sunday.

Today was the first day opening the hive and everything looked great (in my non experienced eyes). I did have two experienced beekeepers who walked me through the hive inspection. They started filling the newly added super with honey. The medium was indeed full of brood and had a nice pattern to it. I need to add another super and would like to go foundationless. I am not sure how to start or whether I can be fully successful doing it this year. I have been feeding them 1:1 syrup for the past week but will stop now. I hope to get to a point where I don't have to feed them again but I really wanted to get a good jump start this year.

I am hoping to get some honey this year and will only have one hive until next year, so I don't have a lot of room for error. Is it possible for me to go foundationless this year and still get honey? How would I do that? If not do I just do a few foundationless frames this year in preparation for next year?

I read that it is best to put the foundationless frames in between capped frames. Would I switch out some of my frames from the super that has honey and alternate? I would have to keep them marked since those frames were made when I was feeding them syrup? I searched the web hoping for a detailed plan but felt uncomfortable with what I found and my situation.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice that you can give.
 
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#45 ·
Wax foundation advantages:

It is drawn more quickly by the bees.
It's a natural product.
It's lighter then plastic foundation

Disadvantages:
Wax is more fragile - breaks when handled at cold temperatures, warps if it gets too hot after mounting in frame, and will not bear rough handling.

Run of the mill wax carries traces of the the chemicals that were applied to the comb from which it was made

Plastic advantages

Saves time - plastic frames need no assembling saving time or labor expenses.

Tough - bears rough handling. More resistant to warping in heat, less likely to break when cold.

Cost: Plastic frames are sometimes cheaper than frame/foundation combined cost.

Eggs are easier to see against black plastic foundation that against wax


Disadvantages -
Bees usually initially resist drawing plastic foundation after it is put in the hive, esp if not wax coated.

I find that there is generally more burr comb when using plastic.

Plastic is heavier - if any amount of moving hives is anticipated, this is a factor (esp if you have a whole truck or trailer load of plastic.

If left in direct sun, heats quickly, liquifying the wax coating and warping if allowed to overheat - which can happen quickly.
 
#46 ·
Connie -

This all depends on what your objective is. Since you posted this in the TF forum, I'll assume you're looking to be TF yourself. I've used both wax and plastic, and have now decided to convert all over to plastic, namely, PF120's which are small cell.

I've not noticed any difference in the bees drawing one any quicker than the other, as long as you are only using one or the other and not combining them.

The disadvantages I've had with wax is getting consistent small cell drawn. If you aren't trying to get small cells, wax is fine.

Plastic frame/foundation combo I do not recommend. Plastic frames stink! They bend when you pry on the top bar to separate. I'm using the foundation from the PF120's and putting them into my wood frames.
 
#47 ·
Plastic does bend when you go to lever them apart.

But the edges of the end bars don't split easily like wood does, and allow you to slip a hive tool between them and lever then apart there, and that works quite well.

A disadvantage to palstic frames I didn't mention because it is not an issue here and didn't come to mind is that he grooves in the top and end bars allow small hive beetles hiding places.
 
#48 ·
I've found the discussion regarding wax interesting, so when I recently harvested 2 deep frames of honey, I rendered the wax. We got 3.1 oz of wax from each frame, but there was probably some wax left in the stuff I strained out. We got about 5 lbs of honey per frame. So if you do the math, a pound of wax holds at least 25 lbs of honey. If the cost of making that wax is indeed 8 pounds of honey, then you're making 75% of what you'd make if you were re-using comb, minus the energy cost of the cappings. But to be fair, you have to factor in the money you can get from selling wax. If you make little candles out of that wax, I've seen 2 oz. beeswax candles going for 4 bucks, so that pound of wax can be sold that way for 32 bucks. That doesn't quite make up for the loss of honey at retail prices, but comes much closer to evening out.

Of course, as a hobbyist, all these calculations are outweighed by the sheer beauty of foundationless honeycomb.

Bee Rectangle


You could make cut comb from this frame that would bring a lot more than the price of the honey and wax sold separately.
 
#50 ·
John. I use a comb guide with a triangular cross-section. Pics:

Wood Table Plywood Furniture Floor
Wood Plywood Floor Hardwood


The first image shows the monofilament fishing line I string through the 2 center holes of the deep frames. The second image is from a frame that I harvested, so you can see how the bees attach the comb.

One of the reasons I think these triangular cross-section comb guides are far and away the best is that the attachment of the comb is so much stronger. The downward pull of the comb is mostly in shear. Engineers will understand what I'm talking about here, but another way to look at it is that because of the acute angle of the guide, there's much more surface for the bees to attach the comb to. I haven't a a single comb wander off the center line, so evidently the bee engineers are pretty happy with the guide.

I find the arguments against putting any wax on the guides convincing; seems to me the bees can do a better job of this attachment if there's no layer of wax between wood and comb. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the first wax the bees put on the guide is mixed with propolis for a stronger attachment. When I look at partial, or newly-started comb, I see some evidence of this, I think, but that might be my imagination. Anyway, I haven't had any comb fall off yet.
 
#51 ·
I know this is old but thought I would update with what I did. I added 10 frames of foundationless frames. I used the wedge top frames, broke the wedge out and glued it in as a guide. In all, I have 40 frames, 30 foundation and 10 not. My hive is 1 deep and 3 supers. I mixed the foundationless frames between the three super boxes and and surrounded them by either capped brood or honey frames. The foundationless frames in my second box(my first super) is practically fully drawn out and have capped brood in it. I have two frames in my top super that haven't been drawn out and one that is only partially drawn. I didn't have much in the way of issues with crazy comb etc. They did extend one of the honey frames into the foundationless frame and I merely scraped it back to size. They have since recapped that honey frame and did not draw it into the other frame. Overall things look well from a foundationless stand point. I do still see a need to have some foundation frames around and will probably try the PF120s.

Thanks to all for your advice and comments. This has been a really fun experience.
 
#52 ·
We were at a beekeepers meeting Thursday night and one keeper was really hyping foundationless . So my thought was we would try it and sell some of the production as comb honey. I figured we would have to crush and strain the rest. Can you really use an extractor instead? any special procedure?
 
#53 ·
If you search BeeSource for foundationless, you'll find lots of info on the subject. A number of members have said that foundationless frames can be extracted with a little care. My understanding is that the extractor should be slower, and the frames flipped before the first side is finished extracting, then switched back after the second side is empty to finish the first side-- I guess this is with tangential extractors.
 
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