Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Foundationless Frames

18K views 52 replies 23 participants last post by  rhaldridge 
#1 · (Edited)
I see there are many posts about going foundationless. I have read many of them including most of what I find on Michael Bush's website. I am a new beekeeper and I just got a hive(with bees) a week ago. It came with a deep and a medium super. I purchased another super with drawn comb at the same time that I picked up the hive. The beekeeper I purchased them from said he checked three frames in the medium before sealing the hive for me to pick it up. The were full of brood. Based on that, I added the super (with the frames of drawn comb) when I installed the hive on Sunday.

Today was the first day opening the hive and everything looked great (in my non experienced eyes). I did have two experienced beekeepers who walked me through the hive inspection. They started filling the newly added super with honey. The medium was indeed full of brood and had a nice pattern to it. I need to add another super and would like to go foundationless. I am not sure how to start or whether I can be fully successful doing it this year. I have been feeding them 1:1 syrup for the past week but will stop now. I hope to get to a point where I don't have to feed them again but I really wanted to get a good jump start this year.

I am hoping to get some honey this year and will only have one hive until next year, so I don't have a lot of room for error. Is it possible for me to go foundationless this year and still get honey? How would I do that? If not do I just do a few foundationless frames this year in preparation for next year?

I read that it is best to put the foundationless frames in between capped frames. Would I switch out some of my frames from the super that has honey and alternate? I would have to keep them marked since those frames were made when I was feeding them syrup? I searched the web hoping for a detailed plan but felt uncomfortable with what I found and my situation.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice that you can give.
 
See less See more
#3 ·
The foundation has to be drawn out as well. Other than the center rib represented by the foundation, the bees have to convert honey to wax to draw comb, be it foundation or foundationless. Is the difference in honey required to draw the equivalent wax of the foundation really THAT significant, especially given that foundationless is generally acknowledged to being drawn faster?
 
#4 ·
I don't understand why some people have to scoff at foundationless every time the topic comes up. So what if the bees need more time and resources to make the new comb? It sure is a lot cheaper than $300 extractor!

Maybe people have methods based on things (ideals, goals) they consider more than you would consider them.

So please. If you have nothing to offer except incredulous wonder at why anyone would be so silly as to keep bees any way other than your preferred way....consider posting elsewhere.
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
So please. If you have nothing to offer except incredulous wonder at why anyone would be so silly as to keep bees any way other than your preferred way....consider posting elsewhere.
I thought I was offering something. I didn't intend to ruffle your feathers, but If I am not mistaken Scallawa was asking about possibly getting some honey this year from a hive just obtained last week, and if some honey for this year is the goal then time is of the essence. So my thinking is using foundation or better yet, drawn wax if they could find it, would better the chances of harvesting some honey this year. Again, I didn't mean to make you mad. I was just offering what I thought would help yield some honey this year. My humble apology!
 
#5 ·
And if you use plastic foundation, there's even less wax in the foundation-- not a significant amount at all.

I see many advantages to foundationless, at least for hobbyists like me. It's cheaper, the comb is not contaminated by acaricides and other chemicals which may have a negative effect on bees, you can make cut comb of the very highest quality, and your bees are allowed to draw whatever kind of comb they want. I don't have an extractor, and cutting foundationless comb off the frames to crush and strain is pretty cool.

Plus, the comb is pretty.

Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Honeycomb


For someone like me, the wax itself is a significant plus-- I have five colonies now and if they make any honey to speak of, they'll make much more honey than I can use, or even give away as gifts. I'm about to build myself a solar wax melter... it gives yet another facet to an already fascinating pursuit.

Of course, if you're a commercial beekeeper who uses acaricides, I guess there's little reason to use foundationless frames. I imagine you don't have the time to watch every hive to make sure the little devils are making straight comb, for example. They may mess up foundation, but at least the next comb starts straight. And foundation is stronger in the extractor.

But for treatment free dabblers like me. foundationless is great. I've already taken honey from my best hive, and it's completely foundationless and a first year hive.
 
#49 ·
And if you use plastic foundation, there's even less wax in the foundation-- not a significant amount at all.

I see many advantages to foundationless, at least for hobbyists like me. It's cheaper, the comb is not contaminated by acaricides and other chemicals which may have a negative effect on bees, you can make cut comb of the very highest quality, and your bees are allowed to draw whatever kind of comb they want. I don't have an extractor, and cutting foundationless comb off the frames to crush and strain is pretty cool.

Plus, the comb is pretty.

View attachment 6902

For someone like me, the wax itself is a significant plus-- I have five colonies now and if they make any honey to speak of, they'll make much more honey than I can use, or even give away as gifts. I'm about to build myself a solar wax melter... it gives yet another facet to an already fascinating pursuit.

Of course, if you're a commercial beekeeper who uses acaricides, I guess there's little reason to use foundationless frames. I imagine you don't have the time to watch every hive to make sure the little devils are making straight comb, for example. They may mess up foundation, but at least the next comb starts straight. And foundation is stronger in the extractor.

But for treatment free dabblers like me. foundationless is great. I've already taken honey from my best hive, and it's completely foundationless and a first year hive.
rhaldridge,

That is some nice looking comb. I was wondering the the strip you have at the top is just the normal wedge nailed in sideways, or if you make an extra splint of some sort and glue it in th eexisting slot?
 
#6 ·
My intention was not to start a foundation vs foundationless debate. I am just hoping to get some advice on how and if I should move forward with that plan this year or not.

I want to go foundationless because I want to try and eliminate as much pesticide and things like that from my diet as I can. It might be a small amount but if I can stop it then I would like to. I won't knock other people for using foundation but I would like to try without. I also want to see what all the rage is about with comb honey. I do appreciate your input and opinion. Did not know it takes that much honey to make comb.

I apologize for the lack of information. I am a little excited as a new beekeep and have a lot (this is turning into a small scale obsession at the moment) going through my head. The deep is full of bees. The reference to three frames was from when the beekeep was giving the hive a final once over before sealing it up for my pickup. He only lifted three frames and based on what he saw (full of brood, good pattern) he decided that was all he needed to see to call the hive healthy (guessing that was his thought process).

I believe the medium had 8-9 filled with brood. There seems to be a lot of bees but I don't have much of a reference since this is all new to me. If you need more information please let me know.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I look forward to anymore thoughts or suggestions.
 
#13 ·
What was already said. Alternate drawn comb with new. I take my drawn brood frames that are hatch ready, and even move those up sometimes. They draw really nice comb in the brood nest. Yes, you can get a premium for comb. I sell mine for $16/lbs. It's a special treat that many people have never or rarely ever have.
 
#10 ·
Alternating foundationless with capped frames is wise-- it'll tend to keep things straight.

Don't put foundationless between uncapped frames, though -- you'll end up with very fat comb in the uncapped frames, and undrawn foundationless frames.

No one who isn't familiar with your honey flows is qualified to comment on whether or not you'll get honey, as flows vary with locality.

On a strong flow, you may.

In my opinion, drawn comb is more valuable than the honey,
 
#12 ·
I now live near NW Oregon, have hives near Elmira in central western Oregon and grew up in NE Oregon. I suspect that your honey making days are numbered for this year unless you have your hive in a unique spot, such as irrigated alfalfa that they let flower. I think that almost all of Oregon is done for the year by the end of July and most of Oregon my the middle of the July.

I don't know how heavy your hive is, but your goal this year should be to have enough honey for them to survive the central Oregon winter. You should take stock of honey frames and be on the conservative side your first year to see how many frames are needed for winter.
 
#14 ·
Thanks for all the responses. I am assuming I will want to use a queen excluder then?

I believe Central Oregon is quite a bit different than the rest of the state. A coworker keeps bees and he gets his best flow (bitterbrush, rabbitbrush) during August. He says it makes really good honey. I am also expecting a significant lavender and wildflower bloom in the next month. Time will tell but I am hopeful.

I first came across the idea of comb honey on the site you mentioned.

So my hive is comprised of a deep and two supers so far. I am going to add another super. The current top super is all uncapped. I am assuming it is filled with sugar syrup since I have been feeding them since last Sunday. By Wednesday they were drinking a quart a day. I did not refill the bottle yesterday and don't plan to unless I should to allow them to draw out the frames?

Would I take capped brood frames from the super on top of the hive body and alternate those with the foundationless frames? Once they draw out the frames in the bottom super, would I switch them back with the capped brood frames that were placed in the top super? Or should I wait a few days to a week to see if they will cap the "honey" (sugar syrup) in the current top super.
 
#15 ·
>Alternating foundationless with capped frames is wise-- it'll tend to keep things straight.

In the brood nest, yes. Pull some of them up to the next box and feed your empty combs into the brood nest. Otherwise pull a capped frame up for a ladder for the new empty box. Make sure you have comb guides.

I think using foundation will cost you honey. Foundation is drawn slower and the real advantage is to have comb sooner for the bees to put the nectar in. They will have it sooner with foundationless than foundation.

Drawn comb is effective for the same reason. Not because of the "cost of making wax" (there is very little weight of wax in a comb of honey) but because it gives the bees a place to put the nectar so they can be harvesting instead of wasting the flow building comb.

http://bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax
 
#16 ·
Michael,

Thanks for your reply. I have two other questions. Once the comb is drawn on the empty frames in the brood nest would I move those into the honey super and move the others back down?
I believe you are an opponent to feeding for long term colony viability but I wanted to know if I should feed until they have drawn the comb?
 
#17 ·
>Thanks for your reply. I have two other questions. Once the comb is drawn on the empty frames in the brood nest would I move those into the honey super and move the others back down?

If the brood box is all brood, and I was feeding frames into the brood nest, I would move some brood up. You will reach a limit on what they want for brood and then they will backfill it with honey. You could move those up when that happens.

>I believe you are an opponent to feeding for long term colony viability but I wanted to know if I should feed until they have drawn the comb?

I would feed until you have some capped stores and there is a flow. If there is no flow and they need to build up for winter I would keep feeding. If there is a nectar flow, I would stop when they have capped stores and start again in a dearth. If they were an established hive with plenty of capped stores to get them through the winter, I would not feed them at all...
 
#19 ·
I also started foundationless with all mediums. It is the direction I want to go but I am struggling with a the comb being drawn out too thick on the outer edges (honey) of the frames in the brood box. I have just added a second box so I will try to move some of these up into the new box, but almost every frame in the bottom box is like this. I'm not really sure how to handle this situation. It may be worth noting that I am using 1 1/4" frame spacing. I am hoping as I get enough brood boxes drawn out and that the bees will start storing the honey in the upper boxes and this issue will start to resolve....... This is the only problem I'm seeing so far, the bees are doing a great job of drawing the comb straight and I am really careful to keep the hives level. I am willing to make some sacrifices for clean wax and smaller cell size, I just have to work through the uneven comb problem.
 
#27 ·
I also started foundationless with all mediums. It is the direction I want to go but I am struggling with a the comb being drawn out too thick on the outer edges (honey) of the frames in the brood box. I have just added a second box so I will try to move some of these up into the new box, but almost every frame in the bottom box is like this. I'm not really sure how to handle this situation...
What I *TRY* to do is move those outer honey combs in the brood nest up to the next box, then move the adjacent brood combs outboard and put some empty frames in between frames of sealed brood. My goal is to keep the brood nest open and get frames of nicely-drawn comb.

I smoke down along the edge of the box to move the bees away because I'm always worried about rolling the queen. Sometimes I'll run a bread knife along the side of the box. You can usually get the frame out then without making too much of a mess, and then the subsequent frames are relatively easy.

If it looks like trying to remove frames will just be too much carnage, then I leave them alone and harvest the box as a whole, either when it's completely filled with honey or when the bees have moved up over the winter and it's empty. Frames with wonky comb can be squished back in line and put back into a hive. The bees will repair it.
 
#22 ·
When comparing foundationless frames to drawn comb, the weights will not make sense. To make a fair comparison, you have to compare a frame with foundation to a frame without any foundation. The bees will only have to make the amount of wax that was in a sheet of foundation, to be back at a place where you can now compare apples to apples. Either way, from that point, the bees still need to draw out the comb.
 
#26 ·
When comparing foundationless frames to drawn comb, the weights will not make sense.... compare apples to apples. ...
This is why I proposed to measure a honey produced. The individual weight of the frames shall be different with and without foundation, so I was trying to convert everything into honey to measure the difference between two approaches. We also shall assume that we extract most of the honey in foundationless approach. Also - we need to compare drawn comb to foundationless. I told you - it is confusing :(
 
#23 ·
actually when they draw foundationless...the middle part that the bees make naturally where the foundation would be is so very thin (you can see right through it) that I doubt that a whole deep frame would even weigh an ounce.

So I don't think there would even be a measurable difference in the use of resources to make comb with or without foundation.
 
#25 ·
But again, how much wax-making does a sheet of foundation save the bees? And how much does the foundation cost? It takes very little wax to make a comb of honey, so the economic calculation should be: is the tiny amount of energy the foundation saves the bees really worth the cost of the foundation and the time it takes to install it?
 
#28 · (Edited)
... It takes very little wax to make a comb of honey, so the economic calculation should be: is the tiny amount of energy the foundation saves the bees really worth the cost of the foundation and the time it takes to install it?
The only advantage I can see to foundation is that it forces the bees to be "neater" by our standards.

That's outweighed by things like being able to harvest queen cells easily with a pocketknife.

Not to mention coming in from the backyard with a frame, running a knife around the inside, and plopping a slab of beautiful comb honey onto a plate in front of your dinner guests. :)
 
#29 ·
Cerezha, this can get confusing. Sometimes the confusion means you are at a fork in the road, and both directions seem equally the same. When I get confused, either at my work or in minding the bees, I often realize I have set my initial priorities aside, or I have lost sight of my original (or new) plan. Directions, with a road map or bees, get a lot simpler when you know your destination. If you stop and think about it, what was your main reason for considering going without foundation in your frames. It might have been it seems easier in regards to less work, it seems healthier for the bees, it would help in dealing with the pest, or numerous others. For what ever reason, take your reason and take note of that purpose. Now figure out what is the conflict. If it is healthier for the bees, but will I lose on honey production. Will this be a short term reduction or long term, and so on. By reconsidering and setting your priorities, the choices seem to become more clear. Also continue to gather more information. Confusion is not all bad. Like Mr. Bush says, it proves you are learning. Personally I have some benefits in top bar hives having natural comb. I have some in my Langstroth hives, but am looking at doing so on a bigger scale. But I am reading, looking and learning as I try to get more comfortable with the whole concept. Taking my time seems to help as well.
 
#32 ·
Cerezha, this can get confusing. ...
Thank you for nice comment. I actually was confused with understanding how this 1-to-8 wax-honey ratio may be used in my own practical beekeeping? This "wax" argument is often used against foundationless, but I have difficulties to find the way to implement it in my beekeeping practice. I am 100% foundationless for 2+ years (not much, but). I could see the usefulness of the drawn comb, but drawn comb approach may be used with foundation or without (see Michael Bush above). Than, the foundation argument is pointless to me. Thus, I am confused why people use the "wax" argument again again and again?
 
#31 ·
>When going foundationless is there any way to extract honey and save the comb for future use?

I extract most of mine. The really soft new combs I make into cut comb honey. The rest I extract.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract

In my experience drawn comb makes more honey than foundation or foundationless. Foundationless makes more honey than foundation. It's all about having a place to put the nectar. With drawn comb there is somewhere to put it. With foundationless they quickly build comb to put it in. With foundation they hesitate building it. It's not about how many pounds of honey makes how many pounds of wax. It's about time.

As far as the difference in the midrib, it takes very little wax to support a lot of honey. I'm sure the difference is negligible.

http://bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax

"A pound (0.4536 kg.) of beeswax, when made into comb, will hold 22 pounds (10 kg.) of honey. In an unsupported comb the stress on the topmost cells is the greatest; a comb one foot (30 cm.) deep supports 1320 times its own weight in honey." --Coggshall and Morse, Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products, pg 41
 
#38 ·
I am running almost all foundationless, except for a few frames of plastic foundation left over from when I started keeping bees, but I have been sticking those in between capped brood this year and they draw them out just fine. I would do as stated and pull atleast one frame of capped brood up into the second box for the bees to have a ladder and a guide.

I didn't do that to one hive this year and they started building comb from the bottom of the frame, we had 108 degree temps for over a week, lets just say that fresh comb turned into a bridge and folded over!

I have also found that the bees do draw foundationless out much faster, and they build what they need, drone comb or worker comb.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top