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  1. #1
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    Default An Agreeable Starting Point?

    There are people here with many different circumstances, some of which make moving to treatment-free beekeeping very hard, and with different resources, and needs as far as preserving numbers of working colonies. Many are caught in the trap of needing to treat to maintain a livelihood, while knowing that treating preserves low levels of resistance - the treatment addiction scenario. Others are freer to experiment with strategies that often lead to high failure rates, without that mattering particularly.

    These differences in circumstances and side-aims seem to me to be the cause of a lot of cross-talk.

    I suspect one major cause of disagreements is born of the of use of the absolutes: 'resistant' and 'non-resistant', where the reality is that most of the time we are dealing with bees that have a little, but not enough resistance. The objective is to raise resistance levels, until treatments are no longer needed in a sufficiently large proportion of our bees, rather than to try to get 100% of colonies 100% varroa-capable.

    I wonder: does all of that form an agreeable starting point for all parties to begin a discussion about how we locate principles that can be taylored to all circumstances, taking care to use language that does not mean different things in different places? Or even the basis for a discussion about what would form an agreeable starting point to such ends?

    Such a discussion would accept the premise that breeding toward resistance leading to genuine improvement is possible. We don't want to keep fighting that fight again and again.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    It's not the starting point that is disagreeable.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #3
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Every beekeeper who makes their own increase - assuming that they also have hives that die of varroa related causes - is working toward mite resistance whether they intend to or not. Every beekeeper would like to have healthy productive bees that don't require expensive time consuming medication. But this part of the forum is constrained to ideologically pure treatment free beekeeping which is free of other husbandry practices regardless of their practicality or effectiveness or lack of. You might be better off starting it in the bee forum if that is not what you had in mind. It would be a bit less likely to result in a food fight.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  4. #4
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Many are caught in the trap of needing to treat to maintain a livelihood,
    I dislike weasel words, why don't we just cut to the chase, commercial beekeepers. There are two primary groups who are very resistant to moving to treatment-free beekeeping. These are commercial (or sideliner) beekeepers who cannot afford major losses and hobbyists who are averse to the idea of "their girls" dying.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    until treatments are no longer needed in a sufficiently large proportion of our bees, rather than to try to get 100% of colonies 100% varroa-capable.
    No group of colonies is going to be 100% of anything 100% of the time. Expecting hives to live forever is a practice in disappointing yourself. So rather, the goal is to progress to a point where no treatment results in acceptable losses, let's say less than 10% on a fairly consistent basis. Then we can discuss how to get there. Seems like an agreeable starting point to me. Ultimately, it is the individual beekeeper's choice of what to do and hopefully they will approach it in a scientific manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    We don't want to keep fighting that fight again and again.
    Then you've got to stop with the insults and learn to use the "Ignore" function. There are a couple of specific individuals around here who are more than happy to return what they get with an extra helping on top. As long as that keeps going back and forth nothing will get done. I have come to the point where I have decided that my purpose is to help hobbyists and backyard beekeepers. I'm not terribly interested in arguing with commercials. Discuss your theories and methods with people interested in discussing theories and methods. What you've been doing is arguing with people not interested in accommodating your side of the story and they're going to keep dragging you through the mud. Do you think Michael Bush got where he is today by arguing about it?


    "Cancel all my meetings, someone on the internet is wrong!"
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  5. #5
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Do you think Michael Bush got where he is today by arguing about it?


    "Cancel all my meetings, someone on the internet is wrong!"
    You should read more of Michael Bush's responses, and emulate his tone... I'm a hobbist with 6 hives, wanting to be/stay treatment free, and I'm researching the "ignore" function you mentioned as your flame thrower attack responses cut down on my enjoyment when I read treatment free threads. That said, I can't find ignore anywhere....

  6. #6
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    One way to add someone to your Ignore list is through your Member Profile > Settings > Edit Ignore List

    This link takes me to mine, perhaps it will also work for you, assuming you are logged in.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/prof...?do=ignorelist

    However, personally I doubt that adding someone to an Ignore list will increase your overall satisfaction with Beesource, but it won't be the first time that I am wrong!

    I don't agree with all of Solomon's posts, but when I read #4 above I thought it sounded fairly reasonable to me. If everybody on Beesource always agreed on everything, there wouldn't be much useful discussion, would there?
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  7. #7
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Click on Settings at the top of this page. Look under My Settings and find Edit Ignore List. Or simply control yourself and don't read Posts submitted by folks you wish to ignore.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #8
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    and hobbyists who are averse to the idea of "their girls" dying...(snip)...Then you've got to stop with the insults ...
    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Your tone could use some work, too, y'know. Mr. Parker, I may not agree with your message but I have never objected to it, just the way you deliver it. I find myself more and more reluctant to even browse this particular forum because of the tone of a few people, not just you. But you're the moderator. You're supposed to set the tone. But you are too often guilty of setting the wrong tone and allowing others to do the same.

    I have come to the point where I have decided that my purpose is to help hobbyists and backyard beekeepers. I'm not terribly interested in arguing with commercials.
    If this is really the case, then I look forward to the tone on here changing. There is a lot all of us can learn from each other if we can just dial back the rhetoric a tad. There are some interesting theories that are worth exploring if we can just stop arguing long enough to hear each other!

    JMO

    Rusty

    edited to add:
    However, personally I doubt that adding someone to an Ignore list will increase your overall satisfaction with Beesource, but it won't be the first time that I am wrong!
    It has worked for me!
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    But you're the moderator.
    No, he isn't. Hasn't been for quite a while. Moderators have the word Moderator under their name.

    I don't know how anyone can expect anyone elses tone to change. Our tone is an illustration of our personality. Luv us or leave us be, I guess. Take an "Oh, that's just sqkcrk." attitude. That's my suggestion.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    But you're the moderator.
    Solomon was a moderator, but is not currently. Note that moderators have the word "Moderator" under their member names.

    Not a job I would want!


    (and for the record, the title under my name is just a title. It comes with absolutely no privileges/authority/responsibility/etc. beyond what any other member has. )
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #11
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    No, he isn't. Hasn't been for quite a while. Moderators have the word Moderator under their name.

    I don't know how anyone can expect anyone elses tone to change. Our tone is an illustration of our personality. Luv us or leave us be, I guess. Take an "Oh, that's just sqkcrk." attitude. That's my suggestion.
    I stand corrected. When I started here, he was indeed the moderator. I never noticed that had changed.

    Sorry, Mr. Parker, I obviously cannot hold you responsible when you are not in authority! I guess we are going to have to police ourselves. Too bad. We sure don't seem to be very good at it. We need some help here!

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbin View Post
    You should read more of Michael Bush's responses, and emulate his tone.
    I'm not Michael Bush, he's obviously much nicer than me in text. What I say, I say with conviction. Yes, it does come off a bit harsh, but you won't see me calling anyone names or saying things which are blatantly disrespectful. That much you can expect out of me. But you'll notice I don't use "I think" much or "just my opinion." If I'm saying something, it's because I believe it, it's true, and I mean it. If you don't like that, feel free to ignore me. You haven't interacted with me so far, so I have no way of knowing if it would be worthwhile. Your choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    If everybody on Beesource always agreed on everything, there wouldn't be much useful discussion, would there?
    Yes, even strenuous disagreement. That's why I commented on this thread. I haven't said but a couple of comments toward Mr. Bispham yet, but his tone can be quite a bit out of line, saying things like "blah blah." I don't like this for two reasons, number one, since I am a treatment-free beekeeper, I feel the discourse in my field must have some minimum level of intellectual rigor, and number two, it only inflames the users I already have "ignored" and the discussion goes totally off the rails, usually ending up with arguing about a bunch of esoteric junk that is of no use to anybody.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    I find myself more and more reluctant to even browse this particular forum because of the tone of a few people, not just you.
    If you think my strong views against anthropomorphization of bees is an insult, then perhaps the problem is that you're too sensitive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    But you're the moderator. You're supposed to set the tone. But you are too often guilty of setting the wrong tone and allowing others to do the same.
    And here's another prime candidate, people not working with the facts. When I was the moderator, I clamped down on everything and a bunch of people hated it. But it was peaceful and stayed on topic. I stand by my record.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    If this is really the case, then I look forward to the tone on here changing.
    That will happen when treatment-free beekeepers actually come to the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum to talk about treatment-free beekeeping, in other words, not bloody likely.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #13
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post



    If you think my strong views against anthropomorphization of bees is an insult, then perhaps the problem is that you're too sensitive.



    And here's another prime candidate, people not working with the facts. When I was the moderator, I clamped down on everything and a bunch of people hated it. But it was peaceful and stayed on topic. I stand by my record.
    When I make a mistake, I say so. Which I did in post #11. I did say I was sorry. I had not noticed that you are no longer the moderator. To give credit where credit is due, you kept order. I realize now that this forum has become so unpleasant precisely because you are no longer exercising authority over it.

    But there are ways to communicate and then there are ways to communicate. Just rein the sarcasm back a few notches. There is no need to be snotty towards the rest of us. You constantly give off the impression that you are slumming when you deign to respond to some of us who are not the purists that you are. At the very least that is off-putting. At its worst, it drives away the very people you say you want to help. Nobody wants help from someone who is gonna rub their nose in the fact that they need help! And nobody is gonna reconsider their position when they are being put down by the very person who is trying to persuade them!!!

    JMO


    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  14. #14
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    If y'all don't mind me jumping in here, perhaps people read too much into what someone has written. Such as "sarcasm" and a "snotty" attitude. Read what is written and try to overlook what you think the demeanor of the Poster is in your mind. Because, quite often the way someone comes across in text is only in the mind of the reader and not the intent of the writer.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #15
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Oh, I freaking hate that, I just lost my entire post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    To give credit where credit is due, you kept order. I realize now that this forum has become so unpleasant precisely because you are no longer exercising authority over it.
    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    Just rein the sarcasm back a few notches. There is no need to be snotty towards the rest of us. You constantly give off the impression that you are slumming when you deign to respond to some of us who are not the purists that you are. At the very least that is off-putting. At its worst, it drives away the very people you say you want to help. Nobody wants help from someone who is gonna rub their nose in the fact that they need help! And nobody is gonna reconsider their position when they are being put down by the very person who is trying to persuade them!!!
    Here's where I am curious. This is sarcasm. If you don't see this then it's not sarcasm. I've come to realize that people just can't handle the amount of openness and honesty I have. Surely they think "he can't actually think that" and so assume it's sarcasm. It's not.

    I don't know what "slumming" means, but I know what works and that's what I push. And if there is any snottiness whatsoever it is toward guys who come in here who are not treatment-free beekeepers and have no intentions of becoming one. Why are they here? Do they go in the Warre forum and argue Warre hives don't work? What is the big hangup?

    On the other hand, I am extremely gentle with people who come in and honestly ask questions. I am here to answer those questions and it is toward those I gear my message. I do admit, I really do cringe when I see the anthropomorphism so often found among newbees. But there's a reason. Here's an example. I really hate killing things. You know, dog breeders never make friends with the dogs that don't cut it. They either keep as pets the champion dogs with the long working life, or they keep the dopey ones who have no chance of competing. Those are their pets. They don't make friends with the ones they have to take out back and shoot because they can't be sold. So when I see the "the girls" and the like, it stands fundamentally in the way of what is necessary in keeping bees treatment free. Because death is not just a regrettable loss that happens sometimes, it is the main tool of the trade. So you either have to have the fortitude to squish the queen ahead of time, or know that out there in the freezing cold your hive is dying. I really hate squishing queens and cutting chicken's throats and shooting dogs, I really really do. But this is life. And anybody who says that treatment-free beekeepers paint a rosy picture about just not treating and everything will be alright are full of it.

    Who exactly have I rubbed in anything that needed help? If I rub anything in anywhere it's in my experience. I only speak from my experience unless specifically stated otherwise. I'm not here to tell people it's their fault, I'm here to tell people exactly where the problem is, from experience. What conclusion am I to come to when I do it the hard way and succeed, and yet most doing it the soft way seem to be failing?

    I'm sorry if you think I've become embittered. Look at the reality.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #16
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    perhaps people read too much into what someone has written.
    Thank you Mark. Best practice is just to go with the text. The internet is full of people who just insult so easy. ("Is that a dig?" "Are you calling me a liar?" "I'm just giving it back.")
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #17
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Yeah, you and I have had our moments and have at least come to an understanding, a datante perhaps?

    Warre Forum? There's a Warre Forum? Where? Where? Gotta go. C ya!!
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  18. #18
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    However, personally I doubt that adding someone to an Ignore list will increase your overall satisfaction with Beesource, but it won't be the first time that I am wrong!

    It has worked for me!
    Same here. Funny though it's kind of like with black holes - Even though you don't see the comments you can still tell where they are because of the other people that fire up as they get sucked in.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  19. #19
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I really hate...(certain tasks in animal husbandry)...I really really do.
    You really should be careful what you put in writing on the internet under your own real name. There are large well funded organizations of true believers who use Google alerts to find you and can make your life miserable if you aren't. Seriously.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  20. #20
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    Default Re: An Agreeable Starting Point?

    Well, at least I have a conscience about it. I have never considered killing animals fun, necessary in certain contexts, but not fun. I don't hunt, rarely fish, and try to eat as little meat as I can get away with in the South. Surely they'd go after the Duck Dynasty guys before me.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

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