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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,565

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    ...yet California already has a confirmed AHB presence....and RIFA for that matter.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,603

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericasBeekeeper View Post
    FABIS and USDA-ID that are fairly quick and accurate.
    FABIS accurate? Since when? Guzman-Novoa is one of the biggest critics of using morphometric measurements. DuPraw (1965) according to Ruttner (1975), was unable to delimit scutellata from capensis by wing venation (Hive and Honey Bee 1992 pg. 36).

    "When
    FABIS was being written, it carried a disclaimer that if the bees in other areas were different then the bees in the FABIS survey or another area, then different standards were to be developed and used." - Dee Lusby.
    Last edited by Barry; 07-07-2013 at 08:33 AM.
    Regards, Barry

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,064

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericasBeekeeper View Post
    We just had another northern state require testing for bees coming from Florida so it might be countrywide.
    We did? Which one was that? ME?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alachua County, FL, USA
    Posts
    7,053

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    FABIS does not measure wing venation. USDA-ID does cubital index of the wing venation but does not give it much weight. The first visible sternite carries much more weight. For an experienced tech there is enough data to determine managed from feral colonies, and possibly sub-species, though that is not the purpose of USDA-ID. Bee morphometrics has come a long way since 1965, 1975, or 1992. There are hundreds of thousands of DNA validated samples in the database now. Capensis from Scutellata is a far more challenging analysis and fortunately not pertinent in America yet. We are curently working on research to just that end. DR. Jamie Ellis, who completed his doctorate on Scutella in South Africa many years ago, returned there a couple of months ago with my co-worker for updated morphometric research. The University of Florida has the rapid DNA analysis to validate morphometrics.
    I am not at liberty to share the name of the state near you that is requiring sub-species certification now. It is creating a lot of work for our tech, Kelly.
    americasbeekeeper.com
    beekeeper@americasbeekeeper.com

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lakeland FL
    Posts
    855

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    why are you not at liberty to say which state if it is a law?

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,064

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    He works for the State of FL and he isn't supposed to.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Jefferson Co, TX
    Posts
    742

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    AmericanBK - Just a dumb question, but wouldn't morphometrics have some issues with all the cross breeding going on. Russians, AHB, Cordovans, Italians, germans, beeweaver, and Romulans, all mixing with feral bees at any time. Heck, you could have a cordovan hive and a queen cell with AHB gene in it that is mean has heck. It gets passed through check stations and bingo the evil one emerges.

    I hope they have some significant structural measurements to go on... but maybe a color shift is enough to go on, but darn, that sure blows any scientific rigor out the door IMHO But I is the village idiot. But I honestly thought that only the Xercus group was the only folks in the zoological world that were still using color patterns for identification.

    Going back under my rock, but I remember the c. rufus fight well, know folks with scars from the earliest DNA fight. Even with genetics they were dealing with muddy water. I pity the folks in this fight. Sounds like someone that is a breeder knows someone that needed election funds.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Issaquah,WA,USA
    Posts
    2,406

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    "But I read it on the internet so it must be true"

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alachua County, FL, USA
    Posts
    7,053

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Hybridization does not hinder identification with USDA-ID. It does present a challenge during FABIS with some smaller bees like Egyptian and possibly German. Then we follow-up with USDA-ID and DNA if USDA-ID is inconclusive. The database in USDA-ID compared nearly 100,000 USDA-ID identifications with DNA results. It is very accurate and can even identify feral bees from managed for an experienced tech.
    americasbeekeeper.com
    beekeeper@americasbeekeeper.com

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,064

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericasBeekeeper View Post
    Hybridization does not hinder identification with USDA-ID. It does present a challenge during FABIS with some smaller bees like Egyptian and possibly German. Then we follow-up with USDA-ID and DNA if USDA-ID is inconclusive. The database in USDA-ID compared nearly 100,000 USDA-ID identifications with DNA results. It is very accurate and can even identify feral bees from managed for an experienced tech.
    Can you elaborate on the identifying characteristics that would be different between feral and managed bees?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alachua County, FL, USA
    Posts
    7,053

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    The measurements are slightly different and cluster in a different quadrant when graphed.
    americasbeekeeper.com
    beekeeper@americasbeekeeper.com

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,064

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Morphometric measurements? (as if I really know what that means)

    Cluster in a different quadrant when graphed? Please elaborate?

    Does "cluster" used here refer to the common understanding of most beekeepers or the cluster of morphometric data? Or what?
    Last edited by sqkcrk; 08-27-2013 at 07:50 AM.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,576

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Here is a link to a Dave Cushman page on morphometric measurements:
    http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometry.html
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,064

    Default Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

    Thanks Rader.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



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