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  1. #1
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    Question Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    I have 2 hives of Cordovans that I started this year from nucs. All the workers, drones, and queens are Cordovan. I would like to add some VSH to the mix without losing that Cordovan coloration. I know the first generation will not have it, but will the 2nd or 3rd if I continue to use only the Cordovan queens that result from the crosses?



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Cool......They should maintain Cordovan in the workers, if your drones that mate with that first generation of queens carrying that VSH trait, are also cordovan. Also, if you want to keep your queens cordovan, their moma has to mate or be AI/II with cordovan drones. It is a recessive trait.

    Also part of my plans.
    I plan on doing a liquid Nitrogen kill(LNK) to check for cleaning behavior on my cordovans...I have a few, unrelated hives headed by cordovan queens that throw quite a bit of workers that are true to color. They overwintered very well and made it without anti varoa Tx.
    They certainly have cordovan drones. I grafted from these queens and kept all the queens that emerged, showing Cordovan color.

    Started some nucs with these queens, and these nucs I'll also test for VSH via LNK. Now, these daughters have been open mated, but that is all I was able to accomplish early spring. Although my drone colonies were well represented by cordovans, since they started flying in January...in very large numbers.
    Once I see the results on the cleaning and removal of dead larvae after the LNK, I'll take the next step.

    Anything that cleans and removes dead larvae in 24 hrs or less, will become my selection pool. I'll go back to their momas, graft, and the cordovan daughters I'll AI/II with semen from drones coming from the unrelated line that also has shown VSH.

    Now, they might not be cleaning in less than 24 hrs...I would love to see them doing it, and I would be thrilled to see some do it in 12 hrs.... We'll see how it goes.
    If the results are less than my expectations, I will get some tested VSH breeders ( VP or Harbo...still searching)...maybe some VSH drone semen, and try to shortcut that way.
    Maybe we'll exchange some queens one day...
    Good luck!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    The easiest way would be to get a VSH cordovan queen. If you can't get a cordovan queen, you can get a VSH queen whose mother was Cordovan, then use your drones to produce daughters from her. You would then have some VSH Cordovan queens from her to further advance your goals either way once you figure out which ones are VSH too.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    The easiest way would be to get a VSH cordovan queen.
    JRG13, do you know someone that has those available? In house raised and selected for VHS? Cordovans that is...
    Thanks!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    The easiest way would be to get a VSH cordovan queen. If you can't get a cordovan queen, you can get a VSH queen whose mother was Cordovan, then use your drones to produce daughters from her. You would then have some VSH Cordovan queens from her to further advance your goals either way once you figure out which ones are VSH too.
    Unfortunately I don't know of any VSH-factored queens available. I'm considering breeding my Cordovan queens to VSH drones and take the resulting Cordovan-factored queens (who would now hopefully have VSH traits) and breed them back to my Cordovan drones. I'm trying to figure out how many generations it would take to get all the workers back to Cordovan again and how much of the VSH I would lose in the process.



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Broke T might, i know I have a pm or post where someone told me they have glenn's cordovan VSH line, I will see if I can find it. Latshaw breeders are cordovan, I know Greg Stahlman sells queens from their Latshaw breeders, he may be able to hook you up, but they might be done for the year.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    but they might be done for the year.
    Which would not be a problem because I am thinking/planning for next season. I find it takes me awhile to figure out what I want to do and where to get what I need, so I always plan way ahead.

    I have to say that Glenn's Cordovan VSH line is really hard to find. It saddens me that all his great work may be slipping away already. I would be thrilled to find someone with his Cordovan queens who is offering Cordovan daughters for sale! Any help in that direction would be greatly appreciated!

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Intersting thread.

    May want to start with contacting the links provided here for breeder queens.
    http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/vsh.html
    Or just call and ask him who has that stock

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Jefferson Co, TX
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    I am a newbie so everything I suggest should be looked at with a grain of salt.

    But if I remember correctly, you are back crossing for a "pure" line then it is fairly simple. The first cross out "Pure Line" versus whatever yields 50% pure line. By back crossing the young to the Pure line yields a 75% percent pure line, then the next cross yields 87.5% pure line, then something like a 94% pure line, then I think for most purposes the next cross is considered a pure line once again.

    But remember those genetics classes were a long time ago in a fair away place and I am trying to remember what I was taught when the dinosaurs roamed.

    Another thing to remember is "line breeding" where you control the mate options for the male and female when breeding for a certain trait can be a serious gamble. Look at the dog industry and all the weird issues appearing within those circles. Hip Displacea (spelling?) is something that has gone from rare in certain breeds to fairly common in some of the breeds. I know many folks in my neck of the woods are having to certify from vets that the male and female don't have any bone issues in the hips by having xrays and such to get premium dollars for their dogs. And I have bought trucks and cars for less than what they are paying.

    But line breeding can be great for certain issues, but can be dangerous trap. You might be increasing the likelihood of the bees of having some trait without ever knowning it. The Africanized bee is a awesome example, that wild trait has carried through.

    So if you can reach outside your line and bring another line from another breeder in with the same trait and keep those somewhat separate and cross them every 3 or 4 generations you are decreasing chances of issues. But with insects that have short life spans and shorter breeding cycles, you can genetic mutations appear and increase within a closed population fairly fast. Played with fruit flies and mosquitos way too much two decades ago.

    But I have no bee experience yet, so you can ignore all this if yea want.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    The easiest way would be to get a VSH cordovan queen. If you can't get a cordovan queen, you can get a VSH queen whose mother was Cordovan, then use your drones to produce daughters from her. You would then have some VSH Cordovan queens from her to further advance your goals either way once you figure out which ones are VSH too.
    A variable that you might be considering and just wasn't mentioned is how narrow is the genetic component to VSH? In otherwords is it a single gene or multiple? Is it dominate or recessive? A simple genetic matrix probably doesn't do justice as to how complex this is. With you testing for the VSH it certainly helps identifying who to breed from going forward. So this picture shows what I am talking about. I used a CApital R for regular cordovan (which denotes dominate, but it's probably recessive and should be lower case). And I mixed traits on the same matrix to simplify things.
    genetic matrix.jpg

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    "The cordovan color variation does not constitute a different race and is not known to be inherently linked with any other physical characteristic or behavior. In fact, any stock can be transformed to cordovan color in two generations of a cross and backcross to cordovan drones. For the queen breeder, this allows him to link selection efforts (e.g. honey production, disease resistance, gentleness) to the color trait, or in effect color code his breeding stock." Tom Glenn
    So I've had it backwards! I should be using VSH queens and breeding them to cordovan drones and then breeding those daughters back to more cordovan drones! AHA! I think I just learned something important here. Now to try to implement it! That's going to take some refiguring on my part. But it doesn't sound too complicated to do, does it?!? I already have the Cordovan hives. Now I need some VSH hives. That sounds not too difficult to arrange. So I'm thinking THAT will be next season's big project--establishing those VSH hives.

    Call this my light-bulb moment. Thanks for listening.



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    Now you got it Rusty, I was hinting you can do it either way, I just didn't know well attached you were to your stock. I would use the drone mother to deliver the cordovan trait, as you can't guarantee an F1 queen delivering VSH + cordovan in her drones unless you know the queen mother is fixed for it. rweakly also hit on it, your mileage may vary as I don't think VSH is a single locus trait and w/o difinitive backcrossing to fix everything you will always have a range of variability in daughter queens.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    I have a II breeder from Vpqueens. So far almost every dtr queen I have raised from her have been Cordovan. Its still too early to know how well the dtr queens will perform but, they sure are pretty. Their II queens are not too expensive maybe you could go in with a friend to split the cost. It would be easier to start out with with a known source of VSH than to try and breed for it from just a couple hives.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Adding VSH to my Cordovans?

    I have a II breeder from Vpqueens. So far almost every dtr queen I have raised from her have been Cordovan.
    This is great to know! Right now I don't have the depth of resources to support a breeder queen, but give me a couple more seasons and I will!

    TY for the tip!



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

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